Do you think Cersei's Walk of Shame was misogynistic?

[Zupoleon]

She has gold, if she manages to keep control of the Rock, And she's still the mother of the king, which could allow her to make some promises in his name. She is far from the top of the food chain, but she could play the game at a lower level, if she were smarter.

That said, I don't think she will manage anything relevant, since her opponents are so much better than her at the game.

Totally agree that her opponents are much better at the game than her. Besides that, she had better make sure she doesn't lose grasp of Casterly Rock, or she won't have any gold with which to bribe. And back to my point, yeah she's the mother of the King, but that's the extent of it. She no longer has the resources to leverage that relationship. The Tyrells will not allow Cersei to use Tommen in any way, they're keeping him as their own pawn now.

[The Lord Commander]

I think the society GRRM created is somewhat

misogynistic. I do not believe this was more than anything else though. In Westeros men cheating is regarded as a slap on the wrist, even in the case of kings, but when women cheat it is very bad. ESPECIALLY in the case of queens and especially considering

Cersei's

circumstances and what she is on trial for. I personally think Cersei deserved it and loved it.

[Theda Baratheon]

I think it will mostly make her change her prefered tools. She used to rely heavily on seduction and on pushing rank ("I'm the queen!, I'm a Lannister!, do as I say!"), assuming everybody would see her as she wanted to be seen and respect her royal title no matter what. Now she will be subtler, try to stay clean, use bribes and promises of titles and power, and probably use Robert Strong and other hired thugs as enforcers.

She will fail, of course, because she's an amateur in the game of subtle manipulation, when compared to Varys, Littlefinger, Olenna, Doran and even Lord Wyman Manderly.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree with all of this.

[Jovem Corvo]

I think it was. I wasn't fond of Cersei but her punishment was too much. She should have been punished, yes, but no one could try to break her dignity in that way. It isn't right. Had they hung her or cut her tongue, it would be better than this walk of shame. Well, anyway, its not like she was the first or the last person with broken dignity in ASOIAF. She herself has already broken others in very cruel ways. All in all, she deserved but it doesn't make the scene less horrible.

[Theda Baratheon]

I think it was. I wasn't fond of Cersei but her punishment was too much. She should have been punished, yes, but no one could try to break her dignity in that way. It isn't right. Had they hung her or cut her tongue, it would be better than this walk of shame. Well, anyway, its not like she was the first or the last person with broken dignity in ASOIAF. She herself has already broken others in very cruel ways. All in all, she deserved but it doesn't make the scene less horrible.

:eek:

[Ser Lepus]

I think it was. I wasn't fond of Cersei but her punishment was too much. She should have been punished, yes, but no one could try to break her dignity in that way. It isn't right. Had they hung her or cut her tongue, it would be better than this walk of shame. Well, anyway, its not like she was the first or the last person with broken dignity in ASOIAF. She herself has already broken others in very cruel ways. All in all, she deserved but it doesn't make the scene less horrible.

Given the choice, I would have taken the Walk of Shame for myself over being hanged or having my tongue cut...

[The Killer Snark]

I think anybody would.

[Theda Baratheon]

Aye

[Pinkie Baelish]

Personally, I don't think she has much of a leg to stand on at this point, besides relying on Robert Strong for protection. She's lost her intimidation factor, and I don't think anyone will take her bribes or promises seriously going forward either. The Lannisters have totally lost their grip in KL, she no longer has a father, brother, uncle to back her up and clean up her messes. Cersei's days of relevancy are gone.

I'm interested to see whether Varys will look to place her back as Regent. It would better suit him to have someone like her back in power, rather than the team of Mace Tyrell, Randyll Tarly and Paxter Redwyne, despite Mace's incompetence.

[LadyMary]

Well, her relationship with her brother is not known to the HS, but her relationship with the Kettleback are know to the HS. Her station in life does not allow her the same freedoms as lesser women. Her part of the agreement for becoming Queen is that she will only bear the King's children. While it is not widely known that she has had 3 kids with her brother, it is known that she took that chance with Kettleback. Robert would not have faced the same punishment because no one in the land has equal power to the King, but the Queen is not the King. She gave the HS power that is second to only the King, and despite her speaking for and advising the King, she is not the King and does not have the same protections as the King. She also initiated the accusations against M, and it became very obvious that she used sex as a reward for Kettleback making his accusations. Was the punishment misogynistic? Yes, it was. The society that it occurred in was misogynistic. Does that make it wrong in the time and place that it occurred? No. Does this make the author misogynistic? No, it means that he can accurately write historical punishments into his novels, and use them to make his readers feel sympathy for characters many of them hated previously.

We know all of her plots and sins, but the HS does not at this point, so it isn't realistic to think that he would punish her for what he doesn't know about. He is punishing her for having sex with men who are not her husband while she is acting as Queen. Her punishment for her her accusations against M have yet to be dealt out. Many of her other plots have not come to light.

That's true, but there are widely reported rumors that Cersei cuckholded her husband with her own brother, which we know she did - although she denies publicly. The Septons don't consider that when passing sentence on Cersei probably because that would be politically inconvenient (making King Tommen illegitimate).

At the point where she is arrested by the Faith, Cersei is a widow, and already the mother of Robert's alleged heirs. In fact, her father is trying to marry her off again, so it isn't out of the question that a widowed queen would get married again and have more children with another husband. But in any case, it means she's not cheating on the King who is dead and there's no risk that any bastard she might give birth to by one of her post-Robert paramours would ever be in the line of succession, if she got pregnant - which apparently she didn't. She's basically being punished for is fornicating with Kettleblack; an adult woman having consensual sex with an adult man.

Of course, history is full of sexual double standards and woman don't have the same liberty that men do even today (women are still blamed for being raped for what they wear or where they are when it happens). I don't have a problem with GRRM writing what would have been realistic punishments for fornication in the middle ages, but treatment of women - or rather's women's sexuality, was misogynistic in the bad old days, and it is misogynistic to force Cersei to crawl naked and hairless (exposed) through the streets to shame her.

I think Cersei deserves to be punished for accessory to murder (Robert and others), treason (adultery), torture via Qyburn, perjury (against Maegery and other) and debts that she incurs but refuses to pay (how very un-Lannister of her), but she's not punished for any of those real crimes, just the sin of fornication.

[qixoticneurotic]

yes and its the beautiful irony of it. cersei is the biggest misogynist in the story.

[Ser Lepus]

Yesterday I was speaking with somebody about the issue, and the other person said something like "what if Robert had been the one forced to do the Walk of Shame",

Then I imagined Robert Baratheon/Mark Addy bringing a band, making them play, and dancing all the way from the Sept of Baelor to the Red Fortress while stripping, while the commoners cover their eyes in horror and run away:

Commoners: Oh the Humanity! This is too much! Cover yourself, man!

Robert: All of you know you want a piece of this, bitches! (while squeezing his man-boobs).

[Nelapsi]

Robert: All of you know you want a piece of this, bitches! (while squeezing his man-boobs).

I'm at work right now, in a very fancy hotel on the french riviera, and I just burst out laughing REALLY hard... I should thank you for all the weird glances I just got from everybody in the hall :P

[Apple the Great]

I'm going to start by saying that I detest Cersei for so many things; for her scheming, the underhand way she beat Ned, her delusional beliefs (from Joff being 'willful' but a good lad to her belief that she treated Sansa well) and her complete arrogance, so I really think that Cersei deserves everything she gets (though I do think it's a bit of a shame that both Tommen and Myrcella will have to suffer for her wrongs). But I will try to be objective.

I'm not really convinced that the walk of shame was misogynistic. ASOIAF is set in a fantasy world that deliberately echoes mediaeval Europe, and it's a simple fact that almost every society has been patriarchal - this has an important consequence that is relevant here. In all patriarchal societies, children inherit the father's wealth and titles. This is why adultery was considered much more serious for the woman involved. Put simply, men had to know that they could trust that the child being born was theirs. So when a man played away from home, the consequences for him were small, perhaps a bastard child that he might have to support if it could be proved to be his. However, if the cuckolded husband was unaware, his titles and wealth could be passed to the bastard son of someone else. Modern attitudes are probably a remnant of this fact. So when Cersei is punished for adultery where Robert might get a chiding is really missing the point, especially when we know that Joff, Tommen and Myrcella aren't Robert's children at all. Fair enough, for the charges of adultery that she is facing, Cersei was widowed, but then I suppose there are arguments about remaining faithful to the deceased husband to take into account, and also, who the hell Cersei is bringing into the royal household. I think the way in which sex is treated in ASOIAF shows that the people of Westeros are more liberated sexually than most modern societies, and so I don't think the punishment is simply because she was sleeping around.

Really, I think many people had noticed that Cersei was far too big for her boots, and even those with little interest in the power politics of the game of thrones, which we might argue the High Septon is, Cersei's arrogance and plotting put her in a position to be taken down a few pegs. The High Septon was shrewd enough to realise Osney Kettleblack was a pawn and he seems to have seen through Cersei's schemes. I also don't think Cersei's haughty attitude once imprisoned endeared her to anyone. Even her uncle Kevan probably thought that she was an arrogant bitch, and so to punish her, they needed something that would really damage her. Now if Cersei were a man, they might have castrated him, or committed another act of violence against him to emasculate him, in a similar way to how Vargo cutting off Jaime's hand caused him to completely re-evaluate his life and worth. So to get to my point, Cersei's walk of shame was more about cutting her down to size, making her a little less proud and reminding her she is only human, and as a permanent reminder to her that she is only human, everyone in King's Landing who cared to see her has seen that she is just an ageing woman, with sagging boobs and stretch marks. I don't really think hating women really comes into this.

Perhaps more interesting is whether Cersei has been truly humbled by the experience or she is biding her time to make a triumphant and bloody return. Everything about Cersei before indicates that she doesn't have enough patience to play a long game and act humble until such time she might make a return, but then, part of me really doesn't expect Cersei to take it lying down.

[Mjoll]

It absolutely is, and it served its purpose, to cowe a dangerous female who used her "female parts" to the detrement if the realm.

And it's a religious punishment...of course it's mysongenistic...

This.

And to answer your question: absolutely. You don't think they would have stripped a man down and made him walk naked through the streets for sleeping around,do you? That whole chapter made me uncomfortable and several people that I know that read the books uncomfortable. I'd have rather seen them tear her fingernails out than be subjected to experience that walk through the eyes of even a fictional character.

As for your take on Martin....I'm going to go with no, it does not reflect his ideals. It reflects the misogyny of that time period and medieval life. Humans were and still are pretty terrible creatures. He is just writing realistically.

I really hope something terrible happens to High Sparrow there. I don't like him much either.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Yesterday I was speaking with somebody about the issue, and the other person said something like "what if Robert had been the one forced to do the Walk of Shame",

Then I imagined Robert Baratheon/Mark Addy bringing a band, making them play, and dancing all the way from the Sept of Baelor to the Red Fortress while stripping, while the commoners cover their eyes in horror and run away:

Commoners: Oh the Humanity! This is too much! Cover yourself, man!

Robert: All of you know you want a piece of this, bitches! (while squeezing his man-boobs).

Can I single this out as the best post ever? :lol:

"Go on, bow you shits!"

[jon stark I]

Walk of Shame designed so readers would feel sorry for Cersei because she became a monster in last two books.By this punishment we felt sorry for her but at the same time all of us know she deserves much worse punishments.

[MindLikeWarp]

If you know a person will not actually be punished by a punishment, you don't do it. You don't whip a man that can't feel pain. You punish him a different way. The walk of shame was a punishment that actually punished her. It wouldn't have punished Robert.

Misogynist? I think she got off easier than a man would have. It is misogynist that men are whipped while a woman just has to walk around naked.

[Cas Stark]

It was misogynistic, but in the context of a dynastic culture where a woman's chastity is the only thing that ensures the heir is legitimate, it makes sense that adultery would be a serious crime, more so in a queen. I haven't read that passage in a long time, but I don't remember feeling that sorry for her. She has wantonly killed people, allowed them to be tortured, used sex as a weapon to gain what she wanted, she is totally immune to the sufferings of other women and only rebels against the misogynistic culture of Westeros because it impedes HER desires, she doesn't care a fig about how it negatively impacts other women, her own deeds and sins are what plunged the country into war to begin with, so I'd say the walk of shame let her off easy.

[mcb]

It was misogynistic, but in the context of a dynastic culture where a woman's chastity is the only thing that ensures the heir is legitimate, it makes sense that adultery would be a serious crime, more so in a queen.

One point, for cuckolding Robert she's accused of high treason, and will be executed if proven guilty. That's an entire different case. The walk was her penance for sleeping, after Bob's death, with Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack (and, arguably, Moon Boy). And that would be a real shame, if not for the little matter of Cersei being a lunatic, murderous monster, which does make it fucking hard to sympathize with her.