Jaqen H'ghar

[corbon]

Jaime's questioning of Rennifer Longwaters early in AFfC covers most of it. More generally it would seem unlikely that the high security prisoners would be released on Ned's order after Ned had fallen and when he himself was locked up in those very same cells.

This.

Ned ordered the release of the three prisoners in the black cells while in the position of Hand. There were no changes in the black cells recently, so therefore Ned ordered the release of Jaqen, after Yoren spoke to Ned-the-Hand. Which means Jaqen is in the black cells and/or Yoren's cage at the same time as Syrio is employed by Ned.

I myself don't see any logic in Jaqen deliberately breaking into a high security jail just to substitute himself for one of the prisoners there.

Thats because there is no logic in this theory. Just bad data and wishful thinking.

[Casey Siren]

This.

Ned ordered the release of the three prisoners in the black cells while in the position of Hand. There were no changes in the black cells recently, so therefore Ned ordered the release of Jaqen, after Yoren spoke to Ned-the-Hand. Which means Jaqen is in the black cells and/or Yoren's cage at the same time as Syrio is employed by Ned.

I know this may be stretching, but Syrio still could have taken on Jaqens face in the time that he was released and Syrio was "murdered" by the gold cloaks. If Syrio survived (which it never says he was dead) he certainly wouldn't be able to keep his own face. Not saying that it's likely, but it's certainly possible for him to assume the face of one of the prisoners to get out of KL cleanly. He may not necessarily want to go to the wall, but the gates were being closed and all of Ned's people being slaughtered, so he would have needed a way out. A faceless man could easily have gotten away from Yoren and not have even had to go all the way to the wall.

[goodnoyz]

I like to think that somehow Syrio is Jaqen and Syrio either was forced or allowed himself to be put in the black cells. Then, once in the cells, he changed his face and left with Yoren.

I like this

[lfisher]

I'm split on the whole Syrio/Jaqen theory, but mostly because it's a theory I want to believe. Given that this is Westeros and trickery comes as naturally as breathing, it's certainly possible that Syrio could have, in attempting to escape the Queen's men, made his way into the black cells and taken the place of the original Jaqen. This could lead to explain why their speech is similar and why Jaqen knows Arya by sight.

Of course, as I mentioned, that's just because it's a fun theory. We like Arya so we like those who protect and aid her. The arguments against this theory lend as much creedence as the arguments for it. Their speech could be similar because they are from the same area, and he could know Arya's face because maybe he has seen a vision of her... Maybe, in his own training to become a FM, he foresaw Arya going through her own training, years into the future. Or it could have been a lucky guess.

Either way, I don't think anyone can say for sure, though people will certainly try. I think it's fine to entertain each idea until they are definitively proven otherwise.

[winteriscome]

I don't believe Syrio is Jaqen but a faceless man in prison? its highly probable he was just where he wanted to be

[Green Dream Girl]

Its a terrible (as in logically inconsistent when you examine things more closely) theory that has been thoroughly disproved in several million threads (ok, I exaggerate slightly, but please, do go and search, rather than have me go through all the evidence again). It is still much loved though.

There is no actual evidence of any sort that ties them together.

Most importantly, they are both present at the same time, so cannot be the same person. Jaquen was in the black cells while Syrio was still training Arya.

Faceless Men are not supermen. They are skilled people with some small 'special' abilities, but they can still be caught, still be imprisoned and still be unable to escape basic chains/cage, as evidenced by Jaquen being chained, caged and going in the opposite direction to his purpose and would have died in the fire had not Arya rescued him by tossing the axe. .

Jaquen does one single thing that was beyond a normal person's abilities in all the time we saw him, and that was change face. It takes more than a face change (and thats all that changes) to change from an older, bald, slight, small man to a larger, younger man.

What a welcoming response to my first post! Thank you! :ack:

Maybe what I should have replied with was: I'm new to the boards, never thought of this before and I love it, as I love Syrio (and Jaqan) and would like to see him win the Game and mount the Iron Throne... But you're right, there is no evidence... Just a fool's hope... :blush: :laugh:

[WatcherOnTheWall]

Arya has some greater purpose and the goal by someone (perhaps a higher power) was to get her to become a faceless man.

1st - Syrio begins her training.

2nd - Syrio changes face to Jaqen and watches over Arya on the road with the NW recruits before encouraging her to bring herself to Braavos.

3rd - Some people have even mentioned that Jagen could be the kindly old man in the house of black-and-white although the theory that he has taken the face of Pate is more probable.

[EnergeticCrab]

I like to think that somehow Syrio is Jaqen and Syrio either was forced or allowed himself to be put in the black cells. Then, once in the cells, he changed his face and left with Yoren.

I hope so, like many others.

[MichaelMjanovic]

Of all the myriad story arcs in this epic tale Arya's is my favourite. Jaqen, to my mind, is one of the most interesting and intriguing characters she meets. I would love to see more of him in whatever visage that manifests. It is interesting to me that Arya encounters several characters that have, heretofore, played only minor roles. Gendry, Jaqen, and those she has encountered in Braavos have roles to play in the game of thrones. I, for one, can't wait to see what GRRM has in store for us.

[RedtheWarrior]

I love Syrio, and while I'm not sold on the theory of him being Jaqen, I will not let go of the hope that he is still alive SOMEWHERE. Just because I want him to be.

[JLE]

my theory: Jaqen killed a known murderer and stole his identity, but did NOT plan on being arrested and thrown in the black cells while wearing that identity.

Rorge and Biter - two brutal, scary, murdering outlaw thugs, so far not known to be anything more than this, except that Rorge had the nerve to steal the Hound helmet and do some pretty heinous things that Sandor is mostly blamed for - are scared of Jaqen. Are they scared of the man (knowing what he is), or of the face (of someone that they know as guilty of even worse atrocities than them, not knowing that the face's original owner is now long dead and Jaqen has stolen his identity)? Either way, they know: he's worse than they are, so they do as he says.

In either case, he doesn't have the super powers of getting out of his chains. And changing his face (whether this is a magical ability or not) while in chains would reveal him as a Faceless Man to anyone who knew what to look for, so he has to stay in that identity until he can "disappear". So he still only survives a fire because Arya released him.

[Delmas]

Don't think Ned is gonna hire a faceless man to train his daughter.

And I don't buy the whole arya was predestined to be a FM theory.

So long story short there is no reason to believe in my mind that syrio was a faceless man.

[Miriel]

I wonder how/why Jaqen got into the black cells. Since Varys was in charge of the Black Cells (in his guise as Rugen) I wonder if he did not hire Jaqen to kill Jon Arryn. There is some evidence for this in the Illyrio/Varsys convo Arya overhears in GOT (the "If one Hand can die why not another, you have danced the dance before my friend" bit). Seems from that as if Illyrio thinks Varys has already killed a hand.

So what if Illyrio and Varys-wanting to prevent open war prior to Dany and Khal Drogo being ready-- hire a FM, to kill Jon Arryn to prevent him from revealing the twincest. But before he can act, LF and Lysa killed the Hand instead. Illyrio assumes when the Hand dies that the FM has done his work and Varys does not enlighten him for reasons of is own. That explains why Illyrio seem to think Varys killed a Hand. And Varys would be left w/a FM who owed him a death.

Still not sure why Varys needed to have the FM in the Black Cells though. The point about the FM could just join up the regular way and walk to the Wall is a good one.

[finger]

IMO, the question is: why was Jaqen there?

We learn that FM are sent to acomplish a "job" that someone in their "church" has taken.

I can't find any hint of that job. It seems his only purpose was to give the coin to Arya, so that she went to Braavos.

On top ot that, once he hands it, he changes his face and moves to Oldtown, where he does seem to have a job. Strange.

He might have been trying to scape and go to Oldtown, and couldn't do it before. But then, what was he doing in KL? Another job?

Maybe killing Jaqen! I'm dubbing him Jaqen, but a FM has a name no more than a face. A FM had a charge to kill a Jaqen. He could be a sergeant of sellswords, and be killed for not paying some of them, for instance. Then, the killer takes Joqen's face. It would explain the fear from Rorge and Biter. But, why taking his face? And, why were they in prisson?

Or the FM had taken Joqen's face just to do his job at KL. What job? Where they in jail as a consequence of the job? It could work.

The fact is that Jaqen makes it possible to Arya to enter the FM, and I don't have a reason for his being there.

[siknes]

Jaqen's goals are clearly centered on the Citadel/maesters, since after he is freed from his debt to Arya he immediately sets off there (he is the Alchemist who kills Pate and steals his identity). Whatever he was doing in King's Landing, it would likely be linked to that. There are theories he's on assignment to find a way to kill the dragons, but that doesn't make sense timeline wise, since he was grabbed by Yoren out of the cells right around the time the dragons were born. He may be in Oldtown to steal information, but this isn't really what the Faceless Men do, so unless he's gone rouge, there's really no way to tell what his deal is.

However he wound up in the black cells, Rorge knew enough about him to be afraid of him, which is saying a lot. Maybe Jaqen was involved in similar criminal elements of King's Landing in his pursuits, and wound up getting arrested through those. Not wanting to reveal his skills, he went along with the charade until he owed Arya, then stayed around to pay her the three deaths.

Once and for all, Syrio is dead. The Lannisters/Kingsguard/City Watch were butchering all Stark men, even those who put up no fight. They're not just going to arrest one of the guys who was fighting back (and had just humiliated four gold cloaks and challenged a Kingsguard knight).

GRRM some what states that Syrio is dead, but the only reference to him is from Cercei "Arya the wild wolf got away, her dancing master got in the way." She does not state that the dancing master is dead, and God knows she wouldn't be afraid to say so. I always had weird vibes about the man in the cave(meeting Bran and company) that was a godsend they were out of food and he provided for them. Then there was the silent man killed by Yggrite that died with no protest. I was thinking they were perhaps the new Jaqen.

[siknes]

Don't think Ned is gonna hire a faceless man to train his daughter.

And I don't buy the whole arya was predestined to be a FM theory.

So long story short there is no reason to believe in my mind that syrio was a faceless man.

Arya seems to be trained more to get the hatred out of her, and her morals straightened out. "It is not for you to decide who is to die," The kind man said, "Who are you?" She is the great She-Wolf.

[A wilding]

GRRM some what states that Syrio is dead, but the only reference to him is from Cercei "Arya the wild wolf got away, her dancing master got in the way." She does not state that the dancing master is dead, and God knows she wouldn't be afraid to say so.

I doubt she thought him important enough to bother to state explicitly that he died.

I always had weird vibes about the man in the cave(meeting Bran and company) that was a godsend they were out of food and he provided for them.

He had Liddle insignia and acted exactly as a Stark loyalist mountain clan man would, with his talk of "when there was a Stark in Winterfell". I would say that he was no more likely to be a Faceless Man than any other minor character in the story.

Then there was the silent man killed by Yggrite that died with no protest. I was thinking they were perhaps the new Jaqen.

The new Jaqen is in Oldtown. But if it was Syrio then at least that would make him dead at last.

[finger]

After some re-read, I think the sequence of events could be:

1. Syrio trains Arya in a way that reminds some drills of the FM.

2. Jaqen, Rorge and Biter are im prison.

3. Ned allows Yoren to taken them away.

4. KG enters Hand's Tower and Syrio defends Arya's escape.

5. When he considers she's far enough, Syrio yields.

6. He's just a part-time trainer, so he manages to be spared, but he's sent to prison.

7. Once in jail, he kills Jaqen, takes his face, and forces Biter to eat the face (as he started to do to Brienne)

8. Syrio/Jaqen, Rorge and Biter are taken by Yoren.

9. Eventually he hands the iron coin to Arya.

10. The FM moves to Oldtown to mind his business

Some questions:

Was Syrio trying to hire Arya?

If yes, why?

If no, it was just a lid, then:

What was he doing in KL?

Did he decide to hire Ayra when he saw she was a natural born killer? :devil:

I think this is the easiest explanation.

[A wilding]

This whole business has of course been discussed to death for years. I am afraid your sequence does not address any of the usual objections to the theory (some of which have already been made up thread):

- The Lannisters killed all the Stark followers, including non combatants like Septa Mordane and Vayon Poole, sparing only Jeyne Poole (my guess is that that was the Hound's doing). Why should they spare Syrio, especially after he had killed Lannister men and facilitated Arya's escape?

- At the beginning of AFfC the gaoler Longwaters gives Jaime a careful reckoning of prisoners in and out. It does not include Syrio.

- If the original Jaqen had disappeared from the cells, or even just been found dead, it would have surely been remarked upon.

- Point 3, Ned makes an order that Yoren should be allowed to take prisoners, followed by point 8, Yoren turns up at the Red Keep to obtain them. Why should the guards honour Ned's order at that point, especially as he is now in those same cells himself? Longwaters even says he was unhappy about releasing them and did so only because "everything was in order". It seems much more likely that Yoren took them before the coup, but then (as he tells Arya) delayed leaving KL because he had been told Ned was going to take the Black also.

[mormont]

The relevant quote (AFFC, in the first Jaime chapter, p148 in the UK ppb):

"The black cells are little used. Before your lordship's little brother was sent down, we had Grand Maester Pycelle here for a time, and before him Lord Stark the traitor. There were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three, but the papers were in proper order. I made note of that in a report as well, you may be certain of it."