A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up

[Quiet Isle]

This thread was inspired by a brief-but-illuminating exchange with Fire Eater in the Moments of Foreshadowing thread. FE dropped in a little foreshadowing nugget about Jon that I had completely missed, and yet after seeing it, it amazed me at how obvious it was.

I'm speaking, of course, of little clues and easter eggs in the text that point to Jon being a king and/or having royal blood.

Mormont's warged raven cawing "King! King!" is the obvious one here. But there is also Jon's (ironic?) observation that Mance's blood is "no more royal" than his own. Varamyr says that a direwolf would be a second life worthy of a king. To expand further and tie in "king" to "hero," we also have Sansa wishing for a hero to chop off Janos Slynt's head. Jon eventually does the deed — is that an obtuse way of saying that Jon is "a" hero, perhaps even "the" hero?

When thinking about the nomenclature of Wylla in another discussion, it dawned on me that Lyanna Stark and Wylla of Dorne and Lyanna Mormont and Wylla Manderly sort of book-end each other. The former pair nurtured and protected Jon in the first part of his life, while the latter pair is vehemently calling for a Stark King in the North, and Robb legitimized Jon in his will.

And then there's the one FE brought up, the one that made me wonder how many of these things are out there that we haven't even noticed yet.

Anyone have any more of these? Either in Jon's POV or someone else's. I have to think that there are other clues out there that have been overlooked thus far.

Gods Apple, you have brilliant posts, but the flashing icons of your avatar just kill me.

[Fire Eater]

Here is one, it may be a bit of Jon-Val shipping but here goes

"You have my word, Lord Snow. I will be a proper wildling princess for your queen."

If Jon and Val end up together, it can be taken as Val being queen, which is usually the wife of a king. In the context of "your queen", Val being foreshadowed as Jon's queen could be indirect foreshadowing of Jon as a king.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

"What did any Targeryan ever know of honor? Go down to your crypts and ask Lyanna about the Dragon's honor" RB

"You avenged Lyanna on the Trident" Ned said halting beside the king. Promise me Ned she had whispered.

Is this where the suggestion is that there's a three headed dragon cloak or some other proof of honor from the Targeryan Prince in the crypt of Winterfell?

[Sand Snake No. 9]

"What did any Targeryan ever know of honor? Go down to your crypts and ask Lyanna about the Dragon's honor" RB

"You avenged Lyanna on the Trident" Ned said halting beside the king. Promise me Ned she had whispered.

Is this where the suggestion is that there's a three headed dragon cloak or some other proof of honor from the Targeryan Prince in the crypt of Winterfell?

I think there's something in the crypt that Jon has to find and that's why he keeps having those dreams about it -- and the dead kings who say he doesn't belong there. Perhaps he doesn't belong because he's a Targaryen king?

[FittleLinger]

Am I the only one who thinks there is really nothing signifficant in the crypts and they are just methaphoric (that Jon should search for his identity and purpose within the truth of his parents' deaths or something?).

I really don't think there will be any Lightbringers, cloaks, or anything in particular that suggests anything down there, I think they (the crypts) have a deeper role, and it will be kind of undermined by anything material.

[Lady of Long Lake]

He favored Jon with a rueful grin. " Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs."

And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear a cross the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

That, along with Aemon's:

Oh, I think Lord Tyrion is quite a large man. I think he is a giant come among us

I still think Tyrion will be a King ....of something :)

[Sand Snake No. 9]

That, along with Aemon's:

Oh, I think Lord Tyrion is quite a large man. I think he is a giant come among us

I still think Tyrion will be a King ....of something :)

Well, we know Tyrion has already been acknowledged as a giant -- by Shae. Look where that got her.

[Hurm]

I'm just explaining how it works. Technically, a king could name pretty much whoever he wanted to; it's just that normally, it goes to the oldest son or the next-oldest brother. If Robb, believing that Bran and Rickon were actually dead, said, "I hereby legitimize Jon Snow and name him my heir," then that's what goes. Why would he make considerations in his will for people he thought were dead? That doesn't make any sense. And there are other discussions about this and how evidence suggests that the northmen are getting ready to back Jon.

Lets not forget that "Line of succession" has not really mattered at any point in the books. It gets brushed aside in almost every instance: Kingsmoot, Joff becoming king, the Dornish succession will surely get mucked up with Arianne being denied her rightful spot, and there are others. Apple Martini is right and what Robb says likely goes and it should be left at that.

I also agree that Northmen are preparing to back Jon, with my uneducated reasoning to be that the people who matter in the books (not necessarily POV characters) such as Illyrio, know who Jon is, and why he is important, as he says while talking to Varys in GoT, "...he has the bastard..." The visions of red priests will become more accurate, peoples dreams will become more acute and Jon's significance will quickly become reality.

[Lyanna Stark]

Here is one, it may be a bit of Jon-Val shipping but here goes

"You have my word, Lord Snow. I will be a proper wildling princess for your queen."

If Jon and Val end up together, it can be taken as Val being queen, which is usually the wife of a king. In the context of "your queen", Val being foreshadowed as Jon's queen could be indirect foreshadowing of Jon as a king.

Hmm, I took it a bit differently, as if Val will "represent" the wildlings in front of Jon's future Queen. "I will be a proper wildling princess for your queen", so crackpot time, Val will be the leader of the wildlings at some point, with the ability to "represent" them in some function in the future?

I do agree with you that the quote just seems too....coincidental :) to just be a throw away.

[redriver]

Am I the only one who thinks there is really nothing signifficant in the crypts and they are just methaphoric (that Jon should search for his identity and purpose within the truth of his parents' deaths or something?).

I really don't think there will be any Lightbringers, cloaks, or anything in particular that suggests anything down there, I think they (the crypts) have a deeper role, and it will be kind of undermined by anything material.

I think all Jon's crypt dreams suggest something scarier than stuff about his parents down there.It's logical that among all the dead Starks may be the Night's King,even though he wasn't a Winterfell ruler.

I think they might have put him down there to make sure he remains dead.

[Ragnorak]

Hmm, I took it a bit differently, as if Val will "represent" the wildlings in front of Jon's future Queen. "I will be a proper wildling princess for your queen", so crackpot time, Val will be the leader of the wildlings at some point, with the ability to "represent" them in some function in the future?

I do agree with you that the quote just seems too....coincidental :) to just be a throw away.

Well Jon turned down Winterfell and Val and it looks like he may well get Winterfell so...

This doesn't point to Jon being a King but it struck me rereading the Eddard I GoT.

“I have more concern for my nephew’s welfare than I do for Lannister pride,” Ned declared.

[Budj]

Lets not forget that "Line of succession" has not really mattered at any point in the books. It gets brushed aside in almost every instance: Kingsmoot, Joff becoming king, the Dornish succession will surely get mucked up with Arianne being denied her rightful spot, and there are others. Apple Martini is right and what Robb says likely goes and it should be left at that.

I also agree that Northmen are preparing to back Jon, with my uneducated reasoning to be that the people who matter in the books (not necessarily POV characters) such as Illyrio, know who Jon is, and why he is important, as he says while talking to Varys in GoT, "...he has the bastard..." The visions of red priests will become more accurate, peoples dreams will become more acute and Jon's significance will quickly become reality.

I think that was in reference to Gendry. The context is Illyrio and Varys discussing how their plans may be affected by Ned finding out about the Lannister incest and illegimate heir.

[Prince of the North]

Well Jon turned down Winterfell and Val and it looks like he may well get Winterfell so...

This doesn't point to Jon being a King but it struck me rereading the Eddard I GoT.

Ned declaring “I have more concern for my nephew’s welfare than I do for Lannister pride” is in reference to Sweetrobin Arryn, not Jon.

I think that was in reference to Gendry. The context is Illyrio and Varys discussing how their plans may be affected by Ned finding out about the Lannister incest and illegimate heir.

Yes, they were talking about Gendry in that conversation.

[Kahl Trollo]

Robs letter making Jon legitimate is a troublesome thing for everyone involved - we as readers know it exists, but who else knows the existence of the letter? or it's contents?

While it's hidden away unread it's useless. So lets travel the path and see that it IS read.. So Jon is legitimized as the son of Ned Stark and heir of Winterfell. Where does that leave the two other sons if they turn up again? Do they have a better claim than a legitimized bastard?

The bigger question is what happens if someone points out 'Ah Jon... yeah... about that whole Ned Stark daddy thing... turns out... you're still a bastard.....just not Ned's bastard.. sorry bout that..yeah and not even in the same line for succession.... we'll try and find you another letter somewhere......'

[Ragnorak]

Ned declaring “I have more concern for my nephew’s welfare than I do for Lannister pride” is in reference to Sweetrobin Arryn, not Jon.

...

Yes, I know, but given Tywin murdered Rhaegar's children it has some potential Jon irony.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Jon turned down Stannis' conditional offer of Winterfell, which involved, among other things, burning the godswood. Would he turn down Robb's gift of Winterfell and the crown of the King in the North after he's been kicked out of the NW, as it were?

I've been reading the news articles about the discovery of Richard III's body, and in one of them a person who wanted the remains interred in York referred to Richard as "the last king of the North." Heh. Anyway, the stories about the discovery -- evidence of the fatal injuries, the mutilation and exposure of Richard's corpse, the burial that indicates the King was just dumped in a hole naked and with his hands still bound -- make ASOIAF more real. Apparently, if you know what to look for, you can discover a whooooooole lot of stuff in a crypt.

[Prince of the North]

Yes, I know, but given Tywin murdered Rhaegar's children it has some potential Jon irony.

Ah, yes, I see what you meant now and I agree :)

[Techelles]

Robs letter making Jon legitimate is a troublesome thing for everyone involved - we as readers know it exists, but who else knows the existence of the letter? or it's contents?

While it's hidden away unread it's useless. So lets travel the path and see that it IS read.. So Jon is legitimized as the son of Ned Stark and heir of Winterfell. Where does that leave the two other sons if they turn up again? Do they have a better claim than a legitimized bastard?

The app confirms that word/copies of the will was sent north to Greywater Watch (Howland Reed) with Maege Mormont and What's-his-face Glover. So they know for sure, as do all the lords who witnessed the signing. As for others who might know and the trouble of it all...well, there are a few schools of thought. Here's a good one. http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/77828-the-great-northern-conspiracy-reexamined/

The bigger question is what happens if someone points out 'Ah Jon... yeah... about that whole Ned Stark daddy thing... turns out... you're still a bastard.....just not Ned's bastard.. sorry bout that..yeah and not even in the same line for succession.... we'll try and find you another letter somewhere......'

Unless the wording of the will specifically stipulates that Jon is only the heir if he is the son of Eddard Stark, then Jon is the heir. Robb could have named Edmure Tully if he'd wanted to. And remember, Jon is still as much a Stark as anyone, just on his mother's side, so he wouldn't really be any more out of the line of northern succession. As a bastard, he was already outside the line; only Robb's will brought him in at all. And really, I don't think the northmen would mind too much, anyway. Jon is a man they would want.

[Kahl Trollo]

Unless the wording of the will specifically stipulates that Jon is only the heir if he is the son of Eddard Stark, then Jon is the heir. Robb could have named Edmure Tully if he'd wanted to. And remember, Jon is still as much a Stark as anyone, just on his mother's side, so he wouldn't really be any more out of the line of northern succession. As a bastard, he was already outside the line; only Robb's will brought him in at all. And really, I don't think the northmen would mind too much, anyway. Jon is a man they would want.

Sure he's a stark - but he's of the lineage of the WRONG stark (If legitimised at all) Rob can name him the heir, and that claim can be disputed by either of the two boys with a (now) much better claim to Winterfell and the 'King of the North'

Lovers of the Jon Targ theory can't really have that both ways.

Of course this overlooks that Jon, himself, doesn't want it. He's already been offered Winterfell and turned it down.

[Techelles]

Sure he's a stark - but he's of the lineage of the WRONG stark (If legitimised at all) Rob can name him the heir, and that claim can be disputed by either of the two boys with a (now) much better claim to Winterfell and the 'King of the North'

Lovers of the Jon Targ theory can't really have that both ways.

Of course this overlooks that Jon, himself, doesn't want it. He's already been offered Winterfell and turned it down.

Point is, no matter which Stark Jon is descended from, if Robb named Jon, then Jon is the legal heir in front of everyone else in the line. There is no "wrong" Stark -- again, unless the wording of the will stipulates that Jon must be a son of Eddard. (Or unless it makes some condition that Jon is only the heir if Bran and Rickon are truly dead, though that doesn't seem likely, since Robb had no reason to doubt that they were dead.)

I think Jon might want it if it was Robb offering and if he thought the rest of his family was lost. I don't think that Jon and a younger sibling will ever clash over the claim, because if Jon even suspected that Bran or Rickon was alive, he would defer to either of them (perhaps still serving as regent).