Tower of Joy: something I've never quite understood (possible spoilers)

[Turin Turambar]

When Ned and his six companions arrive at the Tower of Joy, looking for Lyanna, they find there the three best members of the Kingsguard (ser Arthur Dayne, ser Oswell Whent and ser Gerold Hightower). As an avid reader of the books, I'm acquainted with the "ortodox" theory (J=R+L) but still, this doesn't explain sufficiently well, imho, the presence of them there, at that particular moment.

I mean, what's more important: to protect your king and his (next direct) heir (Rhaegar) or a distant bastard son (allegedly Jon)? Dispatching the best kinghts of the realm to defend your (possible) mistress and her newborn son seems a little...unwise and far-fetched, but conveniently plot-wise. And besides, doesn't the King directly commands the Kingsguard? Why didn't Aerys request that all of the KG's knights to remain by his side (or eventually Rhaegar's) thus mimizing the risk of being backstabbed (as Jaime did) and his son being killed by Robert Baratheon. More so, from Ned's dream in AGoT, it seems clear that all three were all aware that their place wasn't there, missing both the Battle of the Trident and the sack of King's Landing, with dire consequences for the Targaryens...

Or maybe my timeline of the events during Robert's rebellion is a little bit off...

[The Dornishman's Wife]

There are two standard possible explanations:

1) Rhaegar thought Jon was so important that he gave the Kingsguard the order to stay behind and defend that tower at all costs.

:commie: :commie: :commie:

KG are sworn to obey, so they did. Problem with this explanation is: Why did Rhaegar think it was so terribly important, why didn't their obligation to guard the king supersede the order, at least once it was clear that all heirs except Viserys were killed off, why did they follow Rhaegar's order even though the king would probably not want them bogged down that way?

All these objections can be explained away at least partially, but the easier explanation seems to be:

2) Rhaegar revived the old Targ practice of polygamy and married Lyanna, thus Jon was legitimate and first in line to the throne above Viserys.

:love: :love: :love:

In that case, their reason why they wouldn't back down ("We swore a vow") is the most straightforward reason imaginable for a Kingsguard - they were guarding their king.

[King of Winters]

My theory is that Rhaegar married Lyanna at the ToJ, and he needed the members of the Kingsgaurd to be witnesses. He probably married her to make Jon a legitimate heir rather than a bastard. And that the whole reason the Kingsgaurd were there was to protect their now new king, Jon.

As for the reason why they weren't under Aerys' command, Rhaegar had been given command of the army and because the Kingsgaurd join the army sometimes he might of sent them to the ToJ or they might not have even been in KL when Rhaegar was marching towards the Trident, they could have already been at the ToJ.

[Woftis]

There are two possible explanations:

1) Rhaegar thought Jon was so important that he gave the Kingsguard the order to stay behind and defend that tower at all costs. KG are sworn to obey, they did. Problem with this explanation is: Why did Rhaegar think it was so terribly important, why didn't their obligation to defend the king supersede the order, at least once it was clear that all heirs except Viserys were killed off, why did they follow Rhaegar's order even though the king would probably not want them bogged down that way?

All these objections can be explained away at least partially, but the easier explanation seems to be:

2) Rhaegar revived the ancient practice of polygamy and married Lyanna, thus Jon was legitimate and thus the heir to the throne above Viserys.

Would Rhaegar have the authority to do so?

Strangely, I never thought of the polygamy angle before....

[Antonius Pius]

In Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, Rhaegar says (paraphrasing): "His is the Song of Ice and Fire". It's clear that Rhaegar had some prophecies on his mind, and if he thought this baby was to fulfill them, it would be extremely valuable to keep that son alive. Since the three KG did what they were told, we can assume Rhaegar ordered them to guard the Tower of Joy.

Or, indeed, Rhaegar and Lyanna were actually married, and Jon therefore the next heir.

[Antonius Pius]

Would Rhaegar have the authority to do so?

Iffy, 'cause we don't really know; not enough known about the 'rules' of the practice. But some Targaryens did, so it's within the the realm of possibilities.

[Turin Turambar]

My theory is that Rhaegar married Lyanna at the ToJ, and he needed the members of the Kingsgaurd to be witnesses. He probably married her to make Jon a legitimate heir rather than a bastard. And that the whole reason the Kingsgaurd were there was to protect their now new king, Jon.

As for the reason why they weren't under Aerys' command, Rhaegar had been given command of the army and because the Kingsgaurd join the army sometimes he might of sent them to the ToJ or they might not have even been in KL when Rhaegar was marching towards the Trident, they could have already been at the ToJ.

I thought of that and it makes sense from Rhaegar's point of view, but still, if Aerys was really mad and paranoid, I find it hard to believe he really gave up half of Kingsguard to guard a distant place. Also, did the king know about Rhaeger's intentions/feellings for Lyanna?

[King of Winters]

I thought of that and it makes sense from Rhaegar's point of view, but still, if Aerys was really mad and paranoid, I find it hard to believe he really gave up half of Kingsguard to guard a distant place. Also, did the king know about Rhaeger's intentions/feellings for Lyanna?

The ones at the ToJ certainly did know of his feelings about Lyanna. He probably told them after they'd run away together (Rhaegar and Lyanna)

[Turin Turambar]

The ones at the ToJ certainly did know of his feelings about Lyanna. He probably told them after they'd run away together (Rhaegar and Lyanna)

Probably. Talking about the underuse of the kingdom's best swords...

[Dr. Pepper]

Would Rhaegar have the authority to do so?

Strangely, I never thought of the polygamy angle before....

It appears that in the story a marriage is a marriage and is valid regardless if the persons marrying had the authority to do so or not. People may object to it, but that's besides the point. See Ramsay and Lady Hornwood. Polygamy isn't just a practice of the Targaryens. In fact, it was something that was unusual for the Valyrians when Aegon I married two of his sisters. Polygamy is also seen by followers of the Old Gods north of the wall.

I thought of that and it makes sense from Rhaegar's point of view, but still, if Aerys was really mad and paranoid, I find it hard to believe he really gave up half of Kingsguard to guard a distant place. Also, did the king know about Rhaeger's intentions/feellings for Lyanna?

Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar when he 'stole' Lyanna. Hightower was later sent to retrieve Rhaegar, presumably at the TOJ but possibly somewhere else. If Hightower was sent to guard Rhaegar then Rhaegar's orders are to have been followed so long as Rhaegar's orders do not conflict with the primary order of the KG, which is to protect the king. If Rhaegar said to stay and watch his second wife and unborn child, then that's what they do. The question becomes why they continued to stay even after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead and why they didn't then go to Viserys. Rhaegar's orders would have made no matter once there was a new king, unless that new king was in the tower with them.

[Turin Turambar]

The question becomes why they continued to stay even after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead and why they didn't then go to Viserys. Rhaegar's orders would have made no matter once there was a new king, unless that new king was in the tower with them.

Maybe they didn't know that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead. If I remember correctly, in the books we never get a reliable timeline for the war of the usurper.

[King of Winters]

The question becomes why they continued to stay even after Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead and why they didn't then go to Viserys. Rhaegar's orders would have made no matter once there was a new king, unless that new king was in the tower with them.

An heir of Rhaegar's comes before Viserys.

[Dr. Pepper]

Maybe they didn't know that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead. If I remember correctly, in the books we never get a reliable timeline for the war of the usurper.

We get a pretty reliable timeline. As far as the deaths and end of war, Rhaegar died first on the Trident, then Aerys and Aegon died later during the sack of King's Landing. Ned and Robert have their fight in KL over the deaths of the children, Ned goes down to Storm's End to lift the siege then makes his way over to the TOJ. We don't know who told him to go there though there are many speculations on how he acquired this information. It's implied the KG knew Ned was coming and also about what had happened to Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon. Ned tells them that Viserys is on Dragonstone with Ser Darry but they let Ned know that Darry is not of the Kingsguard.

An heir of Rhaegar's comes before Viserys.

Yes, I know. Which is why I said there is no reason for them to continue on at the TOJ after Rhaegar, Aegon and Aerys are dead since Viserys would be the king UNLESS the new king (Rhaegar's child) is at the TOJ.

[The guy from the Vale]

Maybe they didn't know that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead. If I remember correctly, in the books we never get a reliable timeline for the war of the usurper.

When Ned tells them about what happened at the Trident and during the Sack, the KG are very calm, never surprised. They never have a "this changes everything" moment. Quite the opposite. It seems clear to me that they know about the events.

[Turin Turambar]

When Ned tells them about what happened at the Trident and during the Sack, the KG are very calm, never surprised. They never have a "this changes everything" moment. Quite the opposite. It seems clear to me that they know about the events.

Ok, then why not run to safety with the heir/king, as Lyanna was obviously already dying?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Ok, then why not run to safety with the heir/king, as Lyanna was obviously already dying?

Because he was a newborn baby and Lyanna was still his mother, both incapable of travellng so short after the birth itself.

[Turin Turambar]

Because he was a newborn baby and Lyanna was still his mother, both incapable of travellng so short after the birth itself.

Leave the mother, take refuge somewhere safer - Dragonstone, for example. They knew it was just a matter of time before her brother would arrive...

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Leave the mother, take refuge somewhere safer - Dragonstone, for example. They knew it was just a matter of time before her brother would arrive...

Dragonstone? That's currently under siege. Dorne? Unlikely to like Lyanna's child. The Reach? Joined Robert. The Free Cities? Far, far away.

Jon? Mere days old, children travelling at that age die very easily, especially without their mother and guaranted without a wetnurse.

[Ygrain]

Ok, then why not run to safety with the heir/king, as Lyanna was obviously already dying?

Leave the mother, take refuge somewhere safer - Dragonstone, for example. They knew it was just a matter of time before her brother would arrive...

Given the size of the continent, that time might have been quite a prolonged period, if ever, unless somebody tipped him off - which does seem to be the cause and the KG may have been unaware of that.

Also, going somewhere safer may not be as easy as it seems. They're stuck in the middle of the mainland, with a newborn whose needs (and the needs of his wetnurse) must be seen to, and they must reach the coast and arrange a ship. The best place to do so would be Starfall - days to weeks of travel, and then again some time of waiting before a ship can be found, each day increasing the chance that the presence of the KG and the child will be revealed. Perhaps better to arrange the transport beforehands (maybe even a pick-up outside the harbour to avoid witnesses) and then make a fast move between locations, with minimum exposure.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

This has the potential for a great remake of "3 Men and a Baby" :).

Though Bright Blue Eyes and Ygrain are right: "3 Knights and a Baby away from civilisation but in the middle of hostile territory with no allies in sight" has decidedly worse chances for a happy ending that the original comedy.