Lyanna's abduction would still be despised even if it was consensual, right?

[Sullen]

If it was consensual (which it probably was), I'd dislike both of them, rather than just Rhaegar.

Yup.

Seriously, f*ck both of them.

[Anath]

Edward was a crap king I don't know what history books you've been reading.

Hardly a crap King. And he managed to use his wife's family to curb the appetites of the old nobility. After all, they all served him faithfully, Richard's propaganda aside, right? Let alone the fact that Anthony Woodville was a cultured man with interests in literature who promoted it.

Actually, marrying Elizabeth probably saved Edward from squirming under Warwick's thumb for the rest of his reign.

I would actually compare R+L to Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn; the stupid man was willing to tear his kingdom in half, cause the deaths of thousands, marry a woman no one liked all for a baby. Makes more sense doesn't it? Especially when Henry was the renaissance prince of his era

Absolutely.

You say Rhaegar's an intellectual but you also believe he's dumb enough to run off with Lyanna?

I can't, all I can see is a selfish brat who thinks people should accept his stupidity. I sympathise with Rhaella and Bonifer because I'm a modern reader, I don't however sympathise with someone so painfully stupid.

Well, he didn't think it was stupidity. I mentioned that once again, but I'm pretty sure that he had never heard the notion that he might have done something stupid and/or wrong.

As to the OP question: the abduction would still be despised even if it was consensual. Only, I would have two people to despise and not one. I love it how Dany gets all the flack for her wrongdoings but Lyanna is somehow generally excused from taking any responsibility because she was such a cute little child who could not be blamed for her actions.

Yet, somehow Dany was 13 when her troubles started and Lyanna was 15.

[Nami]

Yup.

Seriously, f*ck both of them.

Aw don't be like that

It's an interesting story

[Nami]

R+L stuff always reminded me of Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn

[A wilding]

I would actually compare R+L to Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn; the stupid man was willing to tear his kingdom in half, cause the deaths of thousands, marry a woman no one liked all for a baby. Makes more sense doesn't it? Especially when Henry was the renaissance prince of his era

It is a little more complex than that (despite the Catholic propaganda).

Having an heir was vital, it was not stupid of Henry to make getting one a major strategic aim. Much of the problem was down to Catherine, who refused to go quietly after failing to give him an heir (the usual practice), plus a pope who was too much under the thumb of the Hapsburgs to give Henry the divorce that would generally have been granted.

Edit:

If you weren't well let me explain how people are going to view this affair, and it won't be true love.

1. They're going to call Lyanna a glorified concubine who "seduced" their beloved prince. That's what history has shown when there's a scandalous love affair they always blame the woman e.g. Elizabeth Woodville, Anne Boleyn, Wallis Simpson etc.

The interesting point about those examples is that in each case the woman was blamed for making the man marry them. If they had been content to be mistresses, few people would have batted an eyelid.

[Pikachu101]

The interesting point about those examples is that in each case the woman was blamed for making the man marry them. If they had been content to be mistresses, few people would have batted an eyelid.

The general acceptance is that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, so yes people would side eye her.

Even if they aren't married, it doesn't change the fact that she's just gone and humiliated her House whilst destroying her own reputation and the only thing she has to show for it is being the prince's mistress. The stupidity in accepting this position is overwhelming, if her family disown her Lyanna's all by herself with no insurance whatsoever.

I honestly don't which ones worse; becoming second wife or the prince's mistress. :dunno: Either way the affair is going to be despised even if it's for different reasons.

[Sullen]

Aw don't be like that

It's an interesting story

I'm not saying it isn't, the books would be undeniably boring had that never happened.

But it still leads me to highly disliking both characters for their egocentric behaviour and lack of foresight.

[A wilding]

The general acceptance is that Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, so yes people would side eye her.

The general acceptance amongst us maybe, but not in Westeros.

[Pikachu101]

The general acceptance amongst us maybe, but not in Westeros.

If they had lived I'm pretty sure Rhaegar would either announce his marriage to Lyanna or make her his mistress

[Le Cygne]

But we are speaking of a royal family and upper tier nobility here, not of peasants or local gentry. And Rhaegar was already married, and the kidnapping was a public issue, no way the Starks and Baratheons could pretend nothing happened without a massive lose of face.

This would apply more to the upper classes, the penalty often was disinheritance. Abductions were to get out of existing marriages. At any rate, I don't think "kidnapping" had been established in this case.

[Nami]

"Henry VIII was said to be very handsome when young, and quite dazzling. Six feet tall and powerfully built, he excelled in many athletic events, including jousting, archery, wrestling and all forms of mock combat. He loved to dance and did it well; he was a renowned tennis player. Henry also enjoyed intellectual pursuits, often discussing mathematics, astronomy and theology with Thomas More. He knew Latin and French, a little Italian and Spanish, and even studied Greek for a time. The king was also a great patron of musicians, arranging for music wherever he might be, and was a notably gifted musician himself."

You think got inspiration from him

[Ser Lepus]

This would apply more to the upper classes, the penalty often was disinheritance. Abductions were to get out of existing marriages. At any rate, I don't think "kidnapping" had been established in this case.

Legally, it would be considered kidnapping, since Lyanna was under 16, no matter if she wanted to go with him or not.

And it couldn't end with just a disinheritance. Rhaegar was disrespecting and dishonoring his vassals.

[Le Cygne]

Legally, it would be considered kidnapping, since Lyanna was under 16, no matter if she wanted to go with him or not.

And it couldn't end with just a disinheritance. Rhaegar was disrespecting and dishonoring his vassals.

The quote of mine that you quoted was from a book about English medieval history. I was talking about that. If the cases were brought to court (and often they were not), in some cases there would be disinheritance.

ASOIAF is suggestive of that time, but not an exact match.

Show where in the story it was established that legally it was a kidnapping (quotes).

[Pikachu101]

Legally, it would be considered kidnapping, since Lyanna was under 16, no matter if she wanted to go with him or not.

The minute a girl hits puberty she's an adult and is expected to act like one; it won't be considered kidnapping regardless of Lyanna's youth.

This affair won't be painted as a grown man taking advantage of an under 16 girl, it would be seen as a woman publicly and willingly slandering and dishonouring her family.

And it couldn't end with just a disinheritance. Rhaegar was disrespecting and dishonoring his vassals.

It could end with Rickard disinheriting Lyanna :dunno: that puts her position in an extremely dangerous situation especially when Elia is going to want her gone.

[Promise Me]

I believe as everyone has stated....even if they were in love and wanted to be together no good would of come of it (except Jon of course). Lyanna running off with Rhaegar brought dishonor to her family PERIOD!

[Ser Lepus]

The minute a girl hits puberty she's an adult and is expected to act like one; it won't be considered kidnapping regardless of Lyanna's youth.

This affair won't be painted as a grown man taking advantage of an under 16 girl, it would be seen as a woman publicly and willingly slandering and dishonouring her family.

In Westeros a girl can legally marry since puberty, but she isn't legally an adult until she's sixteen, and can't choose her own husband or lover. She can't marry and she can't give consent against her father's wishes. As a matter of fact, a single woman probably is treated as a minor until her father dies or she's married.

It could end with Rickard disinheriting Lyanna :dunno: that puts her position in an extremely dangerous situation especially when Elia is going to want her gone.

The quote of mine that you quoted was from a book about English medieval history. I was talking about that. If the cases were brought to court (and often they were not), in some cases there would be disinheritance.

ASOIAF is suggestive of that time, but not an exact match.

Rickard Stark was no mere landholder whose daughter ran away with some rogue, He was the Lord of the North, and stains to his honor were a big deal. If he had just disinherited Lyanna, to the eyes of the Seven Kingdoms Rhaegar would have gotten away with turning his daughter into a concubine because he was too coward to do anything. Swallowing his pride and disinheriting Lyanna was an option, but one not without consequences for both Rhaegar and the Starks.

[Le Cygne]

In Westeros a girl can legally marry since puberty, but she isn't legally an adult until she's sixteen, and can't choose her own husband or lover. She can't marry and she can't give consent against her father's wishes. As a matter of fact, a single woman probably is treated as a minor until her father dies or she's married.

Sure looks like Lyanna not only could choose her own lover, but did. She also may have married against her father's wishes.

And provide quotes for the single woman = minor thing. You're supposing an awful lot here.

[Pikachu101]

I believe as everyone has stated....even if they were in love and wanted to be together no good would of come of it (except Jon of course). Lyanna running off with Rhaegar brought dishonor to her family PERIOD!

Exactly!

The reality is loud and clear; Lyanna shamed and humiliated her family by running off with a married man. What kind of idiot thinks she could get away with something this scandalous?

She's either very stupid or selfish to the point where all logic is lost

[Le Cygne]

She's either very stupid or selfish to the point where all logic is lost

So people in love never do stupid things? The world would have far less people in it if people in love didn't do stupid things.

It's a story, there are so may stupid things that people have done in this story. A story about perfect people would be very boring.

[JeepCSC]

Perhaps. But we don't have to applause them for their flaws. We know little enough about Rhaegar and Lyanna, but what we think we know is not endearing in the slightest. Least favorite Stark and Targ for me.