What is it about Jon Snow that people do not like?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This!!! And threatened to kill a baby.

To save another baby from being burned alive, but hey, it's not like that detail's important.

[Jon Wolfwalker]

"The nw is not a democracy but it does have rules and traditions and if you want to change them you do need support and consent.".

Isn't it more of a hybrid? They elect their leader but I have read no quotes that say they are allowed to depose them. The only mention of such that I can recall is TNK, and that was done by a King of Winter and Joramun..

Also, the main purpose of the Watch is to defend against the Others. Most of the arguments seem to ignore this, but yet, Jon is doing most of what he does based on the threat of the Others and everyone else is merry and fine because these men have forgot what they fight against(and even argue their cause).

As for the men of the NW, they all disregard this as fun and a brief incursion. Sam killed one and they respond with "Sam the Slayer", as if it was no big deal or they don't believe.

[Chaircat Meow]

Tell me what makes more sense:

Formally charging him and taking the risk that there might be violence.

Stabbing him with no warning and no trial and virtually guaranteeing violence.

Without their leader and with the watch controlling the hostages Bowen might be able to control the wildlings.

And what "power in his own right" do you speak of, exactly? I seem to remember the letter saying Ramsay would march on the Wall if he didn't get the prisoners he wanted. Should Jon have capitulated?

Becoming a wildling chief?

He shouldn't have capitulated but Ramsay hadn't declared war, just issued a threat (a personal threat too, mind, not to the nw), and there was snow blocking the approaches. Jon needed to write back explaining his position and tell Selyse and Mel to leave.

[Prince of the Green]

You're not convincing me that what these guys did was any smarter or more rational. Meaning, it's not going to take long for those wildlings to figure out who stabbed Jon, and Bowen and Co. will shortly shuffle loose the mortal coil. Whereas if they had, you know, done it in a non-fucktarded way (like, um, registering a formal charge against Jon, to start, instead of just stabbing him outright), that might not have happened.

I for one am looking forward to Bowen getting dismembered.

... When most of the people's attention is on the goddamn giant.

Not really sure if this has been brought up, so forgive me if I am reiterating another's argument; what if Bowen Marsh is simply another player in the Grand Northern Conspiracy?

Robb did suggest that a gift of one hundred new Watch recruits might curry the favor of whoever was in charge at the time, and would release Jon from his vow. If this was the promise from the Northern lords, that they get their new sovereign quietly and discreetly in exchange for the increased manpower, it might explain the tears of Bowen Marsh, as well as Wick Whittlestick's reaction when Jon was ready to charge at him.

]'"For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling steward backed away, his hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me.'

[Chaircat Meow]

Not really sure if this has been brought up, so forgive me if I am reiterating another's argument; what if Bowen Marsh is simply another player in the Grand Northern Conspiracy?

Kill me now. Who isn't part of this fucking conspiracy?

[Florina Laufeyson]

Without their leader and with the watch controlling the hostages Bowen might be able to control the wildlings.

Somehow, i highly doubt this. The wildlings seem to be pretty damn loyal to Jon. Tormund is at very least going to kick up a huge fuss. But i dont think Bowen is going to make it out of that mess with his head intact by any means.

Ugh..i really dont have the "spoons" for this argument. Smoke and ash make me irrationally cranky.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Kill me now. Who isn't part of this fucking conspiracy?

kill us both. Wasnt marsh supposed to be a secret targ?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Without their leader and with the watch controlling the hostages Bowen might be able to control the wildlings.

I'll take that bet. Like I said, I'm holding for dismemberment. I tend to actually think the other Watch brothers will be right in line with the wildlings, though.

Becoming a wildling chief?

Based on ... what, exactly? Like where are you even getting this?

He shouldn't have capitulated but Ramsay hadn't declared war, just issued a threat (a personal threat too, mind, not to the nw), and there was snow blocking the approaches. Jon needed to write back explaining his position and tell Selyse and Mel to leave.

As Lord Commander, Jon is the Night's Watch. Threatening him is threatening the Watch itself.

And if Jon expelled hostages like Ramsay asked him to, that would be "taking part" in the realm's politics. We can't have that, can we?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not really sure if this has been brought up, so forgive me if I am reiterating another's argument; what if Bowen Marsh is simply another player in the Grand Northern Conspiracy?

No. Bowen Marsh is a lot of things, impending pulpy corpse being top of the list. But not GNC.

[Prince of the Green]

Kill me now. Who isn't part of this fucking conspiracy?

I guess I have my answer..

kill us both. Wasnt marsh supposed to be a secret targ?

Two birds with one stone. Saved me the trouble from asking in another thread. :rolleyes:

[Florina Laufeyson]

No. Bowen Marsh is a lot of things, impending pulpy corpse being top of the list. But not GNC.

Im hoping for Wun Wun's Special Castle Pizza myself.

[Chaircat Meow]

Whinging

Yea, yea, you don't agree. I am out of cutlery too (?), so I am bowing out of this.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yea, yea, you don't agree. I am out of cutlery too (?), so I am bowing out of this.

"I have nothing of value to contribute so I'll just snark and skulk off."

[butterbumps!]

But alienating the nw was a disaster for him. And I really don't think it was a good to ask his men to go to HH while presenting his own actions as a personal affair and as potential oathbreaking. Even without the stabbing this would one of the stupidest PR moves ever. How the fuck do you expect your men to obey and respect you when you send them out to fight the Others of all people and you behave like that?

I agree he knew how to rally the wildlings and did that well, although I seem to recall Jon being worried everyone would not stay calm (he thinks about needing chairs or something) suggesting he didn't exactly anticipate the response he got.

Oh, Bran the Deciduously Cute Cat, didn't we agree on an armistice for this powder keg of a topic that always destroys our beautiful friendship? Maybe Jon finally recalled those 100 unaccounted for Watchmen stuck there, and that's why he changed it up (jokes, jokes). But yea, the point I was really addressing is that this is, ironically, one of the best matches of audience-speech we see Jon make. I don't think the chairs thing suggests he didn't get the response he wanted-- I think Jon's thoughts afterward saying "fuck the Watch, I don't need you" is the response he was going for.

Are you wanting to debate the last chapter outside of the speech itself, though? (I was planning to abstain, for the record). If you want another repeat throwdown on Hardhome, oathbreaking and Ramsay (with special attention to the heroic merits of Count von Count), I guess I could accommodate, just not at the mo.

[Strong Flame]

Yeah but it was her first time too... He couldn't have failed to impress haha.

If yer using yer tongue right, it shouldn't matter whether its her first or 1001rst time...We are talking about playing the sexaphine...i mean saxaphone...yeh?

to the OP...Well, maybe that's just it, Jon always has natural talent. Even in his worst he's better than most...and some people don't jive on that. I don't think that its true, nor do i dislike him, so....

[Pikachu101]

I love Jon, it's his fans I hate <_<

I swear they'd willingly destroy a good story just so he could become king; do they even understand his character?

[Strong Flame]

I love Jon, it's his fans I hate <_<

I swear they'd willingly destroy a good story just so he could become king; do they even understand his character?

Well put. That is exactly it!

[The Wolves]

do they even understand his character?

Do you?

[Ser Creighton]

Threefold.

1. The complaint that he's boring, goody two-shoes, cliche, whatever.

2. An extension of #1, the very real possibility that GRRM is playing him absolutely straight as a "hero" and there's no subversion here. This bothers people who think GRRM subverts more than he actually does.

3. The possibility that he's going to steal thunder from someone else, namely Dany and/or Stannis.

1. It actually annoys me some that in todays age people often have a problem with characters and people who are by their very nature good. Not sure if it's a comment about current society and people becoming more and more jaded or if we don't have enough of these people in the world now days and it is becoming increasingly harder to identify with them.

2. Martin seems to be playing him as a hero much the way he play Gregor as a villian sure they are more complex that just those two words but at the core of the characters that's what you will find.

3.I don't know can't their be more than one thunder bolt in any given storm? It's large scale story plenty of thunder to go around. Not sure why it sometimes comes down to it's this character or that, plenty of good characters, spread the love.

[Ser Creighton]

I love Jon, it's his fans I hate <_<

I swear they'd willingly destroy a good story just so he could become king; do they even understand his character?

Not true, your painting all fans with to broad a brush. Some fans can get a little caught up in a character Jon is not the only one. We all know what Stannis threads can become. Or the Jon vs. Dany threads cause some people can't like both and must hate the other. Team this or team that, I think over focusing on any character totally misses the point of the POV style Martin uses. I often read about how a lot of fans skip chapters of characters they don't like. Me I like the books so I read the books, not just the part of the books that support any theory, or belief, or desire I have for the story or a given character.