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yolkboy

Sapphires = Secrets

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Fair enough that's a pretty good explanation.

With Symeon, Dagmar and Mance, I just don't see what the secret is.

butterbumps! and The Dornishman's Wife have given pretty solid suggestions for Mance. I think the Symeon analysis is pretty much spot on: the secret here is his connection to the Others; i.e., that he probably was one of them. Something along those lines.

Dagmer may require some further research, but what of it? We already have pretty good explanations for most of the 26 examples. It might be that the explanation isn't apparent yet.

Another point, and I'm not sure if this was mentioned yet, is that both Griff and YG dye their hair blue to hide their identities. Personally, I'm only about 1/3 through ADwD, but the idea of them washing the blue (secret) out of their hair and revealing their identities was already mentioned. I'm not sure if it was further elaborated on, though.

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With Symeon, Dagmar and Mance, I just don't see what the secret is.

Dagmer, is in Theons eyes, the most feared man on the Iron Islands. This belief comes from when Theon was young and that was true. Theon has returned and Dagmer is old, and in the full passage (I couldnt fit the whole part in the OP) Dagmer mentions the singers say a younger man, Andrik, is now the best fighter. Theon says 'but you're still the most feared', because Dagmer is his idol. Dagmer says 'aye', agreeing with Theon. The insinuation is that Dagmer knows full well that he isn't the most feared anymore, and keeps that secret from Theon. Andrik is the most feared, and Dagmer is too proud to tell that to Theon.

(this was probably harder to understand because it requires a read of the entire passage)

Symeon's secret - he was said to have literal sapphire eyes, according to the songs. Wight's eyes (Jaffers) are described as being as blue as sapphires. The insinuation is Symeon's secret might have been that he was a wight or part-Other.

Mance was a really tough one. Butterbumps! has posted her thoughts on it, and given two different angles. It's the only instance of a negative ie. 'no sapphires', so has several possible explanations - does it mean there's no secret and underlines Mance's sincerity, does it highlight a secret such as the one BB posted, or both? Or is there even a secret we don't know about yet, as Mance is talking about his past at the time. This was the trickiest one by far.

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also following the sapphire ring you have emerald, jet, jade, a black diamond and a green pearl Perhaps more Dance of the Dragons 2 foreshadowing?

I missed this post when i read through. It's a really good idea, and I hadn't personally thought of looking for colour patterns in the way that you have. I looked at each ring individually, but I like this. Good to see someone taking a look at gems in a code sense after the OP. Illyrio's rings hold more messages IMO, possibly regarding his secret allies, plans and D ot D foreshadowing. The rings change each time they are described for a reason.

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Wow yolk boy highly impressed. Very nice post. Well thought out, and presented. Something I will have look over on my next reread. I have no major issues with it. Thank you.

I would say that Roose action of letting Jaime go shows that he is already not just planning, but actively working plans against the Starks. His comment is saying from his POV that the Starks are done, and he isn't worried about what they could do to him. He thinks he has already won. Which is almost true. For now.

I had never heard the theory of S+B=M and really don't like it. Mel IMO is no how from them, but I have a pet theory that Teane Merriweather is their daughter or grand daughter.

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@OP: I've had the most fun on this forum while reading your theories in the last week or so.

:bowdown:

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This seems plausible for now. But someone mentioned that every character does hold secrets at every point in the series, so a mention of sapphires specifically pointing towards secrets may be far-fetched. Will be back after re-read. :)

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This seems plausible for now. But someone mentioned that every character does hold secrets at every point in the series, so a mentio of sapphires specifically pointing towards secrets may be far-fetched. Will be back after re-read. :)

Absolutely, if the interpretation was just "sapphires = a character has some secret somewhere", then this theory would have too little explanatory power to be considered properly backed up because it would be too difficult to falsify anyways.

However, as it's "sapphires = a secret is relevant just now", then the theory suddenly becomes pretty impressive. Many of the secrets in the examples are relevant in just this very scene, or at least in very few scenes involving the character. And it just happens to be the scene with the sapphires... that's a pretty concrete and testable hypothesis, and it seems to have been impressively confirmed.

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ROBIN:

"The little lord wore sky-blue velvet, a chain of gold and sapphires, and a white bearskin cloak. His squires each held an end, to keep the cloak from dragging on the floor."

Earlier in the chapter Sansa instructs the maester to give Robert sweet sleep rather than giving him milk of the poppy and tying him to mule during the descent. Several times she either mentions or thinks how important it is that he appear to be a strong lord. No one can know how sickly he really is. Once he's dressed and ready to go he shows up wearing sapphires. So the secret is concealing his ill health, and this is the only time he wears the necklace.

Great stuff as usual yolkboy! I agree that it's pretty compelling that all the uses of sapphire can be found to indicate a secret or secrets in the immediate subject matter. I wonder if, a la Mance's negative sapphires, you've given any thought to the singular and plural use? While it could be simple context, a brief glance at some of the examples above makes me wonder if sapphires doesn't indicate multiple secrets, or perhaps the magnitude of the secret? Just a thought.

The thought I really wanted to share wrt to the Sweet Robin passage is the pairing of the sapphires with the white bearskin cloak. If I recall correctly the only other instances of white bearskin cloaks are related to the North (Val the Wildling and Mors Umber, see this very interesting theory by Fire Eater) In this chapter Sansa spends a lot of time worrying about her descent from the Eyrie, because of the danger of discovery she thinks she must be Alayne Stone in her very heart now and that is clearly problematic. Her thought "Sansa Stark went up the mountain, but Alayne Stone is coming down" crystallizes this struggle. I found the use of the white bearskin to be so jarringly out of place in the Eyrie (a snow bear being a creature of the north) that I would suggest the secret is as much tied to Sansa and her northern identity as anything else. As an aside, if you read Fire Eater's theory, you are dealing with a lost daughter and hidden kinship, both of which are present in the Sansa-SR passage.

Of course she is also worried about hiding SR's debility, and spends a lot of time with that in the same chapter, so your interpretation is equally valid. Multiple interpretations being what brought me to wondering about plurals...

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snip

That's a really interesting post, Lady Gwyn. First of all, we didn't consider the pluralization at all. But as you can see in the thread, there did seem to be some 'bonus' catches and multiple secrets on occasion. Whether that's directly related to the pluralization of the sapphires, would be something worth looking at more closely. It's a great idea. :thumbsup:

Regarding Sansa, that's an equally valid angle, and it gives more suspicion to the idea that plural sapphires might make multiple secrets. Robin's health seemed to be a good fit because the white bearskin coat and the sapphire necklace seemed to part of a 'disguise' (in a sense), although I'm no expert on this passage at all.

If white bearskin coats are so rare, my gut instinct is there is something curious about that, whether FE's idea is correct or not. But it's definitely a 'standout' piece of clothing, and i'm growing increasing suspicious of standout items or descriptives, in general. It's good thinking to notice just how out of place that cloak is in the scene, and now we know it's placed alongside a sapphire secret, it adds further curiosity. Illyrio's rings seemed to each hold a meaning, so I'd guess that an out place item of clothing might be the same.

Great input LG. ;)

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Well, with regards to the conjecture secrets that cant be proven because they havent happened yet. Take a look at all the examples of the secrets we do know of to be 100% true. They all fit the pattern, without exception, as far as I can tell. There's a point where so many of the dots are joined, the others join themselves.

It seems to me that they fit the pattern that you want them to fit.

Here's a question - if your theory is true, what is the purpose or meaning of it? Why is GRRM doing it?

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It seems to me that they fit the pattern that you want them to fit.

Would be useful to give examples. There's 26 mentions of sapphires, and we've presented 26 secrets that are relevant to the scene. There could well be a couple that we're mistaken on, given there's bound to be a small margin for error on so many interpretations. It's really quite a simple pattern, and I don't understand how you think we've been manipulative, given you neglected to mention why or give any examples.

Other people have claimed the same, and when they gave examples, they seemed to understand after a response and further explanation. Some of the scenes require an understanding of the full passage and dynamics as to what's occuring, and I had to shorten everything to keep the thread tidy and be succinct. This has been the source of misunderstanding for some people, who weren't familiar with particular parts of the text.

Here's a question - if your theory is true, what is the purpose or meaning of it? Why is GRRM doing it?

GRRM clearly likes to play games with his readers, for examples the prophesies are very much like puzzles. He's adding extra layers of intrigue and enjoyment for the reader, and ensuring his books are poured over for years to come.

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Here's a question - if your theory is true, what is the purpose or meaning of it? Why is GRRM doing it?

Because he can. He's writing this series because it's interesting, not because he needs the money

Symbolism is something a lot of authors use, Hitchcock and Coppola are two very famous examples (from TV, but so is GRRM).

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That's a really interesting post, Lady Gwyn. First of all, we didn't consider the pluralization at all. But as you can see in the thread, there did seem to be some 'bonus' catches and multiple secrets on occasion. Whether that's directly related to the pluralization of the sapphires, would be something worth looking at more closely. It's a great idea. :thumbsup:

Regarding Sansa, that's an equally valid angle, and it gives more suspicion to the idea that plural sapphires might make multiple secrets. Robin's health seemed to be a good fit because the white bearskin coat and the sapphire necklace seemed to part of a 'disguise' (in a sense), although I'm no expert on this passage at all.

If white bearskin coats are so rare, my gut instinct is there is something curious about that, whether FE's idea is correct or not. But it's definitely a 'standout' piece of clothing, and i'm growing increasing suspicious of standout items or descriptives, in general. It's good thinking to notice just how out of place that cloak is in the scene, and now we know it's placed alongside a sapphire secret, it adds further curiosity. Illyrio's rings seemed to each hold a meaning, so I'd guess that an out place item of clothing might be the same.

Great input LG. ;)

Cheers yolkboy! :)

Re: the bolded... I'm growing increasingly suspicious of... well, everything :ph34r:

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What does he have against that particular gemstone? What did it do to him? Maybe he invested in sapphire jewelry for some former love, only to find out she was playing him false, and now foreverafter that stone is associated with deceitful damnation.

About this phenom of sapphires lying, just about the only "Yeah, but..." that's worthy of mentioning is: if the characters are ALWAYS gaming each other and sapphires just happened to be mentioned often, that'd mean that you could also find deceptions every time the word McNuggets appeared, simply because people are never fully honest with one another in the series. (But I'm not really saying this, because it's more fun to be a sapphire believer.)

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About this phenom of sapphires lying, just about the only "Yeah, but..." that's worthy of mentioning is: if the characters are ALWAYS gaming each other and sapphires just happened to be mentioned often, that'd mean that you could also find deceptions every time the word McNuggets appeared, simply because people are never fully honest with one another in the series. (But I'm not really saying this, because it's more fun to be a sapphire believer.)

Find anything else that's mentioned every single time there's a secret pertinent to the scene, then we'll talk.

good luck with that

PS I did a pdf. search for McNuggets and nothing came up.

it's more fun to be a sapphire believer

Sure is MotO!

GRRM needs to release winds of winter.

I'm sure he's devastated people are studying his works in the way he intended them to be studied.

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Would be useful to give examples. There's 26 mentions of sapphires, and we've presented 26 secrets that are relevant to the scene. There could well be a couple that we're mistaken on, given there's bound to be a small margin for error on so many interpretations. It's really quite a simple pattern, and I don't understand how you think we've been manipulative, given you neglected to mention why or give any examples.

Here is the thing, you are making a statement: Here is a sapphire, and here is the secret it represents. The problem is, that it is VERY easy to identify correlations after the fact. No one is accusing you of being deceptive, the statements you have made are specific, but that doesn't make them correct.

It's the same issue with Nostradamus' quatrains. Reading meaning into them is so easy that you can imply all sorts of meanings or implied accuracy even though there is literally nothing to the predictions.

So when you say that the Sapphires mentioned in a particular case represent X, the response can only be 'possible'. By asking people to prove a counterexample is asking them to prove a negative.

The problem is that there are so many secrets/plots/disguises that it is trivial to attach some sort of secret to the appearance of a sapphire that while you may actually be correct, calling out for someone to prove you wrong is not the proper way to go about this.

Something you will need to address: Why are sapphires not seen during other characters with big secrets? What is the trigger that makes sapphires appear for these secrets, but not others? Notice I'm not saying you are wrong, but if you are going to declare yourself correct, you need to have rock solid proof.

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What if we looked at this backwards? If you are suggesting that Sapphires appear in the text around characters with secrets, and while the secret is being either discussed, thought about, referenced, or suggested, what about characters with big secrets that don't have sapphires around their passages?

For example, I searched for sapphires around Jaqen H'ghar, a man with a huge secret, and he has no sapphires. Why? Neither does Pate, or the alchemist. In my mind, wouldn't this be the perfect example for the sapphire code to appear?

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