illrede Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 That's called "Nuremberg defense". He didn't despise it as well. Never showed any remorse.And no, I'm not going to call someone who organised a WoS (especially of his own niece) a good man. Hai Godwin. "Nuremberg et al" was weird. Applying it indiscriminately has you going around retroactively calling bog-standard normal people evil because of the ultimate ends they served. He fought a war within context-mandated convention, he participated in a political faction within context-mandated convention. You are just angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicer Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Stannis may be hated in Westeros, but he is a "truly just man" who uses some brutal punishments. Not the wrong cause, the just cause... Is he truly a just man though? Or someone who bends the law as he sees fit? How can he ask Jon to become Lord of Winterfell if the oaths of the NW are sacrosanct and should not be broken? Especially when he burns fake Mance for being a deserter despite Jon's request that he not do so. And burning people as a sacrifice to R'hllor taints his cause IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksandar Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 A guy who cuts down and kills a fleeing child in cold blood and then laughs about it? I don't think the Hound would fit the description of a 'good guy'. Davos comes to mind here. Stannis may have a claim to the throne but he is a hypocrite in many ways and burning people to death is just vile. Davos is truly a good man serving the wrong cause. I think this is best post on this topic i read so far.... And also i believe that Kevin is a good man....The only thing people hate him as i read post's here is because of burning of riverlands... Catlyn Tully(Daughter of Hoster Tully who is overlord of riverlands kidnapped Tyrion and provoked a war....she had no write to do that....Lanisters attacked kingdom who's lords are responsible for kidnapping Tyrion....They had every right to do that.... If you read Arya's chapters in book 2 and especially 3 you will see there is no difference between Robb Stark army(Under command of Roos Bolton) or Lanisster army under Tywan Lanister both sides have burned the riverlands...and also as i recall reading in some Catlyn chapters where Lord Tytos Blackwood and Lord Bracken have burned their own lands destroying all crop fields so the lanisters cant use them.....I'm pretty sure Robb's army made bigger damage then Lanisters.....Also let's don't forget Robb's raid in hills of Westerlands.....they killed raped and stole from Tywan's land.....It's a war....i think you can't judge Kevin for following Tywan's orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 What has Kevan ever done to show he's a good man in any way? He has served his House and liege - that's considered a good thing in Westeros, as Stannis Baratheon could tell you He loves his children and wife - that's considered a good thing in Westeros as most people can tell you How that for a start? He's loyal to his House and an apparently loving father and husband. That's pretty much a fine description of a good man in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jslay427 Posted October 1, 2013 Author Share Posted October 1, 2013 I think this is best post on this topic i read so far.... And also i believe that Kevin is a good man....The only thing people hate him as i read post's here is because of burning of riverlands... Catlyn Tully(Daughter of Hoster Tully who is overlord of riverlands kidnapped Tyrion and provoked a war....she had no write to do that....Lanisters attacked kingdom who's lords are responsible for kidnapping Tyrion....They had every right to do that....If you read Arya's chapters in book 2 and especially 3 you will see there is no difference between Robb Stark army(Under command of Roos Bolton) or Lanisster army under Tywan Lanister both sides have burned the riverlands...and also as i recall reading in some Catlyn chapters where Lord Tytos Blackwood and Lord Bracken have burned their own lands destroying all crop fields so the lanisters cant use them.....I'm pretty sure Robb's army made bigger damage then Lanisters.....Also let's don't forget Robb's raid in hills of Westerlands.....they killed raped and stole from Tywan's land.....It's a war....i think you can't judge Kevin for following Tywan's orders.Aside from the spelling, this for the most part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 I think this is best post on this topic i read so far.... And also i believe that Kevin is a good man....The only thing people hate him as i read post's here is because of burning of riverlands... Catlyn Tully(Daughter of Hoster Tully who is overlord of riverlands kidnapped Tyrion and provoked a war....she had no write to do that....Lanisters attacked kingdom who's lords are responsible for kidnapping Tyrion....They had every right to do that.... If you read Arya's chapters in book 2 and especially 3 you will see there is no difference between Robb Stark army(Under command of Roos Bolton) or Lanisster army under Tywan Lanister both sides have burned the riverlands...and also as i recall reading in some Catlyn chapters where Lord Tytos Blackwood and Lord Bracken have burned their own lands destroying all crop fields so the lanisters cant use them.....I'm pretty sure Robb's army made bigger damage then Lanisters.....Also let's don't forget Robb's raid in hills of Westerlands.....they killed raped and stole from Tywan's land.....It's a war....i think you can't judge Kevin for following Tywan's orders. Unless you want to judge a ton of Northmen and Riverlords as well, that is. But I imagine that most people against Kevan would never dream of doing that. Double standards I call it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Unless you want to judge a ton of Northmen and Riverlords as well, that is. But I imagine that most people against Kevan would never dream of doing that. Double standards I call it. Oh, I do. Remember that the topic is "good man", not "slightly worse than average massmurderer". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksandar Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Aside from the spelling, this for the most part. Sorry English is not my first language... Unless you want to judge a ton of Northmen and Riverlords as well, that is. But I imagine that most people against Kevan would never dream of doing that. Double standards I call it. Haha i just remembered....Stony sept....Battle of the bells.....While the royal forces under command of Jon Conington searched every house in Stony sept trying to find "Usurper" people of Stony Sept have helped Robert to hide....They were searching for him for days...And yet NO CIVILIAN has been killed or harmed.....not until "HONORABLE" Ned stark and Hoster Tully arrived.....They destroyed royal forces and then by the Hoster Tully command they destroyed that little town to the ground....because lord Moton who was lord of Stony sept was loyal to the crown.... So let's summ up: People of small town were brave enough to hide rebel lord and then after the seige was broken that rebel whit his friend's NED and Hoster burned and killed those brave people because Lord Moton was loyal to the crown....And why did they do that?,......Because it's war and they needed to show that every one who would side whit Aerys would end like those brave people of Stony Sept.. As Catlyn remembers in one of her chapters how her brave father unleashed his wrath on Lord Moton's town for being disloyal.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Considering Westerosi don't really have the idea of humanism, and that peasants are considered by nearly all nobles to be less than themselves, using that type of standard for Kevan isn't really realistic. I don't know how that type of readers gets through these books without being miserable. Do people think Robb Stark didn't pillage the westerlands? Kevan's mainly known for being kind. He was kind to Tyrion, he was king to Tommen, he saved Podrick Payne's life and got him a job as Tyrion's squire. He loves his wife, even though she is described as not conventionally attractive, and he wants the best for his sons. By Westerosi standards, he's a good man. By Post-war western values, well of course he isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 It's hard to view a man who commands Ser Gregor Glegane, Ser Amory Lorch, and Vargo Hoat to "set the Riverlands ablaze" as "good". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Selig Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 He has served his House and liege - that's considered a good thing in Westeros, as Stannis Baratheon could tell you. Good thing I don't take advice on what's good from persons who burn people regularly. Being the right hand man of a monster for decades is very much a bad thing. I don't care that he was Kevan's brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Catlyn Tully(Daughter of Hoster Tully who is overlord of riverlands kidnapped Tyrion and provoked a war....she had no write to do that....Lanisters attacked kingdom who's lords are responsible for kidnapping Tyrion....They had every right to do that.... Actually, it was the Lannisters who both provoked and started the war not Catelyn. Moreover, she had the same amount of legal right to do that as there was saying that she didn't. And finally, no they don't have the right to break the king's peace over Tyrion's arrest as seen in how Tywin initially resorted to hiding his involvement until full scale war had broken out after Robert's death. Moreover, I doubt that Robb's followers were anywhere close to the immorality of the Tywin and Kevan ordered massacres of the smallfolk by the monsters such as Gregor Clegane and Vargo Holt. Simply, Kevan's accomplishment of being the most moral Lannister is like Sandor's accomplishment of being the shortest Clegane aka not all that impressive, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jongtu Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Kevan has always been the Lannister I have always liked People calling Stannid a hypocrite is pointless. There are dozens of post support Stannis and making numbskulls like you looking stupid. Aside from that. Calling Stannis' cause a bad cause is also stupid. He is trying to rid the throne of a usurper and do his duty as rightful king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Good thing I don't take advice on what's good from persons who burn people regularly. Being the right hand man of a monster for decades is very much a bad thing. I don't care that he was Kevan's brother.Right!! Kevan Lannister was a horrible man who worshiped a evil SOB. The fact that he said Tywin was a just man was so wrong it's fitting that he died the same way as the man he worshiped for most of his life. I clapped when Kevan died he was never a good man he knew how his niece and nephew breed bastards and put them on the throne yet fought for them to illegally keep the throne. His death was most deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Well, the matter with Kevan is, as I see it, Tywin - as always. He was the lesser brother - the less capable one, the less evil one. Next to Tywin Lannister, every Lannister (minus Cersei) would look good. I don't think Kevan was particularly evil but his "goodness" stands out only when compared with Tywin's character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Oh, I do. Remember that the topic is "good man", not "slightly worse than average massmurderer". I can't recall any "average" massmurder at all. They are all kind of special and should be approached individually. Also if you will go down that route I hope that I will see denouncement of several Northmen atrocities from you in the near future. No? I thought so. Good thing I don't take the advice on what's good from persons who burn people regularly. Being the right hand man of a monster for decades is very much a bad thing. I don't care that he was Kevan's brother. It does throw a rather distinct light on the difference here. Varys is talking about how Kevan is a good man according to Westeros standards. You are using 21th Century Western humanist standards for judging what is a good man. Thus you are talking about apples and oranges which means that little of value can be taken from this. You are right however that if Kevan had lived in the 21th Century he would probably have been considered a bad man. But he don't live in the 21th Century but in Westeros around AL 300 when the comment is made. Thus I would take that he is indeed a considered a good man in his culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleksandar Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 Actually, it was the Lannisters who both provoked and started the war not Catelyn. Moreover, she had the same amount of legal right to do that as there was saying that she didn't. And finally, no they don't have the right to break the king's peace over Tyrion's arrest as seen in how Tywin initially resorted to hiding his involvement until full scale war had broken out after Robert's death. Moreover, I doubt that Robb's followers were anywhere close to the immorality of the Tywin and Kevan ordered massacres of the smallfolk by the monsters such as Gregor Clegane and Vargo Holt. Simply, Kevan's accomplishment of being the most moral Lannister is like Sandor's accomplishment of being the shortest Clegane aka not all that impressive, HOW just tell me HOW Lanisters provoked the war....they didn't kill Jon Aeryn..... What do you think Ned would do if Tywan kidnapped his son/.....I'll tell you what would he do......he would gather his army and attack Tywan directly..... Ned had no right as well.....And yet he was one of Usurper's dogs who broke kings peace......Catlyn kidnapped Tyrion(Tywan was surprised when he sow tiryon so he taught he was dead).....So what is difference between Ned and Tywan(LOL i;m sensing HUGE replies) "Moreover, I doubt that Robb's followers were anywhere close to the immorality of the Tywin and Kevan ordered massacres of the smallfolk by the monsters such as Gregor Clegane and Vargo Holt."........You would be surprised read Arya chapters in book 3 and you will see. "Simply, Kevan's accomplishment of being the most moral Lannister is like Sandor's accomplishment of being the shortest Clegane aka not all that impressive," -Simply, Ned's accomplishment of being the most moral Stark is like Sandor's accomplishment of being the shortest Clegane aka not all that impressive, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illrede Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 It's hard to view a man who commands Ser Gregor Glegane, Ser Amory Lorch, and Vargo Hoat to "set the Riverlands ablaze" as "good". That's where excising the inclination see evil (or stupidity) is important. "Evil people do evil things, good people don't do evil things", and leave it at that. "Let's be depraved and thoughtless and bring ruin, burn down the Riverlands" happens in the same world as "we need to get these people to disperse their strength and disrupt their internal lines and ability to field forces in the open so we can win this war we are fighting for our cause, burn down down the Riverlands.". Good people have without number set themselves and went about doing distasteful and abhorrent things for a cause they believed right, and this will never stop happening. Evil people are right beside them all the way having a ball. Kevan isn't Lorch or Clegane, much less Hoat. He isn't even Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 HOW just tell me HOW Lanisters provoked the war....they didn't kill Jon Aeryn..... What do you think Ned would do if Tywan kidnapped his son/.....I'll tell you what would he do......he would gather his army and attack Tywan directly..... Ned had no right as well.....And yet he was one of Usurper's dogs who broke kings peace......Catlyn kidnapped Tyrion(Tywan was surprised when he sow tiryon so he taught he was dead).....So what is difference between Ned and Tywan(LOL i;m sensing HUGE replies) Might I remind you about how Tywin's son(Jaime) pushed Ned's son(Bran) out a window or how both Ned and Catelyn were told her Tywin's other son(Tyrion) was responsible for hiring an assassin to kill that son(Bran). Yet, despite this neither Ned or Catelyn organized the North's armies to sack and pillage the Westerlands while in disguise like the cowardly Tywin. Ned only raised arms against Aerys after Aerys called for his and Robert's heads despite them committing no treason against the throne. In contrast, when Lyanna was kidnapped by Rhaegar both him, Robert, and Ned's father never raised their banners against the throne. Moreover, Catelyn didn't kidnap Tyrion instead she arrested him publicly for attempting to assassinate her son using her power as the Regent of the North. Provide the quotes showing Robb's men being as bad as Vargo Holt and Gregor Clegane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N/A Posted October 1, 2013 Share Posted October 1, 2013 There are no "good" men , only strong men who do as they will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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