Heresy 76

[Capon Breath]

Oops just spotted above people referencing Snarks. My bad!

[Capon Breath]

Certainly, I agree. We might bicker about what it means, but the theory as you lay it out seems eminently reasonable.

As to Rickard and Brandon: Rickard left behind his Valyrian Steel sword. As a great Lordof Westeros, would he do so if he didn't think something fishy was happening? And if eh did, wouldn't he have left information if anything went wrong?

Moreover, if the Starks knew somekind of secret but kept it THAT secret, how did it last millennia?

Ice, the family blade that Ned keeps chopping of heads with then going to the heart tree.

Wasn't there a sickle related head off in front of a heart tree in Brans dream?

[Harlan]

One issue I have with Sam's research about the Long Night. It was written by the Andals who were presumably interpreting the runes of the ancient First Men, that the Others were particularly susceptible to Dragonsteel. Surely this must have been a misinterpretation of the original runes, for the First Men would have had no word for steel, because there is nothing to suggest that steel existed during that time or at least had been introduced to Westeros by the Andals at that time.

Isn't it possible that when it's said that andals brought steel to westoros, it's meant that they brought people who knew how to make steel. It seems reasonable to me to believe that some first men may have gotten steel blades via trade with the cities of esos. The steel in westoros would have been a very hard to find commodity though. It would be similar to how the vikings were able to get some very high quality swords via trade with asia even though the smithing methodologies needed to produce the fine steel didn't make it to europe for centuries after the vikings got some blades. If you would like to learn more about viking blades, the link below could help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_sword

[Capon Breath]

Or it is very simple ... ;-)

There is one more Stark left in Winterfell (there always has to be a Stark in Winterfell), and he is a former king of winter and hiding in the crypts, basically he's the Stark failsafe. And his name is Winter.

Winter Stark is coming.

Winter Stark for the Win.!

I have always thought that Winterfell literally meant the place where Winter fell.

Wait.... über Stark who died (Winterfell) know resting in crypts...Others who can raise Wights.....A warning to Bran about not bringing people back from the dead.

The wall is to stop any chance über stark can be raised from death?

[wolfmaid7]

I don't know if there truly is a secret, but if you look at the words " winter is coming " in the sense that Ned and Ben used it, it sure sounds like something ominous. Based on the theory that I have I think the Starks have forgotten about " the cold" the breath of the Wolf that brings mass death from the North.

I think the Wall was to keep that at bay, and no humans were to be on the Northern side of the wall. For they would be in its path once it made its move south . i mean Ben and Ned spoke of resettling the Gift, who else would be suitable to settle there but Wildlings. The North hardly had people .Maybe That was the plan.

[Black Crow]

One issue I have with Sam's research about the Long Night. It was written by the Andals who were presumably interpreting the runes of the ancient First Men, that the Others were particularly susceptible to Dragonsteel. Surely this must have been a misinterpretation of the original runes, for the First Men would have had no word for steel, because there is nothing to suggest that steel existed during that time or at least had been introduced to Westeros by the Andals at that time.

I think that this rather goes to the heart of the business, because while its all very well to say that runes can be translated, its a very limited medium. Arguably the list of Lord Commanders which Sam was so dubious about might have been at least partly based on older lists recorded on stones, but at best the sort of information they can convey is going to be limited to recording a great battle in the year of the winter sun, or whatever other means was used to record time. Its certainly not up to conveying complex ideas like "dragonsteel"; that sort of thing is going to come from oral sources whether in song or story and is therefore prone to the usual limitations of myths and legends. The point being that while Sam found a story of the Last Hero doing his stuff, that was the setting down of a legend, not a contemporary record or even a copy of a contemporary record.

[Black Crow]

While you brought it up.....

No love on Heresy for Snarks = a corruption of Starks? And representing "something scary out it he woods"

Its not necessarily a flippant thought. We know that not everybody loves the Starks - the Boltons for a start, and no doubt like many another adversary they delighted in attaching mocking nicknames

[King Tyrion VIII]

Perhaps the grumpkins got him...

Seriously though, as I've suggested before I don't think it should necessarily be read too literally; but rather that there should always be a Stark of Winterfell ruling over the north. Perhaps that was the reason why Torrhen Stark knelt, lest the Starks be wiped out in another field of fire.

Interesting idea.

[King Tyrion VIII]

One issue I have with Sam's research about the Long Night. It was written by the Andals who were presumably interpreting the runes of the ancient First Men, that the Others were particularly susceptible to Dragonsteel. Surely this must have been a misinterpretation of the original runes, for the First Men would have had no word for steel, because there is nothing to suggest that steel existed during that time or at least had been introduced to Westeros by the Andals at that time.

But we have seen them susceptible to dragonglass.

Perhaps it's as simple as translating it as dragonsteel instead of dragonglass.

[Black Crow]

Just an idle thought on this timeline business, or rather the dating of events. The good people of Westeros are currently celebrating the fact that its the year 300AL; that is 300 years since Aegon's landing. We've also seen ample other evidence of the existence of a calendar using Aegon's landing as the datum point.

But what about before. How were dates recorded - if at all.

[JonNonRegis]

But what about before. How were dates recorded - if at all.

I've often wondered this as well.

One point that may be relevant is that in SoS, Ygritte cites the invasion of Gendel and Gorne as having occurred 3K years ago.

Jon, also familiar with the tale, doesn't question or contradict that timeframe.

The implication (to me) is that even though they were raised on opposite sides of the Wall, and wildlings show no particular sign of widespread literacy, they both believe it was 3K years ago. Which might mean that the ancient First Men in general (alphabet or no) may have been able to count just as well as anyone.

[Lord Ravenstark]

I don't know if there truly is a secret, but if you look at the words " winter is coming " in the sense that Ned and Ben used it, it sure sounds like something ominous. Based on the theory that I have I think the Starks have forgotten about " the cold" the breath of the Wolf that brings mass death from the North.

I think the Wall was to keep that at bay, and no humans were to be on the Northern side of the wall. For they would be in its path once it made its move south . i mean Ben and Ned spoke of resettling the Gift, who else would be suitable to settle there but Wildlings. The North hardly had people .Maybe That was the plan.

I thought the plan was to create cadet branches.

Just an idle thought on this timeline business, or rather the dating of events. The good people of Westeros are currently celebrating the fact that its the year 300AL; that is 300 years since Aegon's landing. We've also seen ample other evidence of the existence of a calendar using Aegon's landing as the datum point.

But what about before. How were dates recorded - if at all.

I had this doubt... Essosi years too.

[Black Crow]

Although there must, surely, have been some recognised means of dating events before Aegon turned up, I can't help but feel that when anybody is talking in terms of 3,000 years ago, or 4,000 years ago or 8,000 years ago without citing an actual date, it is a shorthand for time immemorial. An event said to occur 4,000 years ago is clearly one which occurred before an event said to have occurred 3,000 years ago, but beyond that I think it would be foolish to treat either as accurate dates.

That's why I tend to be fairly relaxed about the timeline business these days. So long as the sequence and relationship of events is maintained I don't think the dates matter.

[wolfmaid7]

I thought the plan was to create cadet branches.

I had this doubt... Essosi years too.

I did think of the sons of Stark Bannermen who could , I'm like nah something off ,why talk to should Ned talk to Benjen about that? correct if I'm wrong, wasn't the Gift given to the NW? Therefore shouldn't that be a conversation between Mormont and Ben? I seem to remember Jon having a heated argument with Stannis about him wanting to give the lands to Southern Lords.

The Wildlings may end up in the gift anyway in the end.

[avernite]

I suspect, but cannot be sure, that a pre-Aegon calendar in Westeros could be three things:

1) Based on Andal legend. At some point, say year '1000' since the conquest of the Vale/founding of Oldtown/sanctifying of the High Sept in Oldtown/peace with the North someone devised a calendar. Seems likely, if probably fairly academic (used by Maesters and ranking Septons)

2) Based on reigns. Year 10 of Jon Stark the Hungry Wolf, 20th year of Joanna Lannister the mad queen, whatever. Probably used by the smallfolk, if they ever bothered, and the local merchants.

3) Stolen from the Valyrians. year x since the Doom, or before that year y since the Fourteen Flames/founding of the Freehold, similar to Ab Urbe Condita. Used by fancy wannabe-Valyrians (mostly great lords, probably) and merchants doing business with Essos.

4) Dating since the Long Night. Possibly used in the North, though more likely they stuck to type 2.

Now, it's a good question: did type 4 exist at all? We do not know much of what Greenseers had as positions in the North pre-Andals, but presumably they were major Shamans. If so, they might have maintained a rough calendar like that. Otherwise, it's almost certain any date before the institutions of the Andals (High Septon, Maesters) is guesswork.

Another big issue is: who came up with years in the first place? With seasons that last forever, you'd probably make a moon-based calendar (assuming the sun's cycle is actually messed up by said seasons) but why cut it after 12 moons and not 6, or 30?

[Stanley Baratheon]

To bring up an idea from earlier in the thread, I think there certainly could be something to the notion that "the old powers" began to awaken around the time of Robert's Rebellion. If Benjen had already joined the Night's Watch at that point - and judging by the immense respect he commands within their ranks, it would seem like he's been there at least 16 years - there would have been no Stark in Winterfell when Branden left for King's Landing and his father. Lyanna was presumably with Rhaegar, and Eddard was in the Vale. It isn't obvious from the text that Winterfell had ever been Stark-less before - though of course it's perfectly plausible that it had ample precedent.

[Urrax]

...(assuming the sun's cycle is actually messed up by said seasons) ...

I doubt that it is. We're dealing with magic here.

[Urrax]

To bring up an idea from earlier in the thread, I think there certainly could be something to the notion that "the old powers" began to awaken around the time of Robert's Rebellion. If Benjen had already joined the Night's Watch at that point - and judging by the immense respect he commands within their ranks, it would seem like he's been there at least 16 years - there would have been no Stark in Winterfell when Branden left for King's Landing and his father. Lyanna was presumably with Rhaegar, and Eddard was in the Vale. It isn't obvious from the text that Winterfell had ever been Stark-less before - though of course it's perfectly plausible that it had ample precedent.

Well, the phrase may just mean there must always be a Stark as head honcho in the North. If someone said "There must always be a Windsor in Buckingham Palace" it wouldn't mean the Queen could never leave her house.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Well, the phrase may just mean there must always be a Stark as head honcho in the North. If someone said "There must always be a Windsor in Buckingham Palace" it wouldn't mean the Queen could never leave her house.

Old Nan is the secret Stark of Winterfell. They keep her there at all times, just in case...

[redriver]

Aw,forgeddit.