Heresy 76

[Black Crow]

I think something worth bearing in mind here is that GRRM spends a lot of time being ambiguous. There are the different versions of the Azor Ahai stories; there is the uncertainty over the Prince that was Promised; all sorts of inconsistences over how the Wall was built; whether Bran the Builder ever existed and so on, not the least of which is this business of R'hllor and the Great Other. We have comes across all sorts of gods old and new, yet to so many readers R'hllor and the Great Other are the only show in town.

The Horn of Joruman is just one of those mysteries. Some say its to bring down the Wall, others that its to raise giants from the earth. It may do both or neither, so its probably unwise to make any kind of assumptions as to its powers or purpose at this stage.

[King Tyrion VIII]

My Geography teacher said something about the "Gaia Theory" a couple of days ago and said it was that the Earth was one big organism and that it creates natural disasters in order to control population. So I looked I up and here's the over view:

Could this be similar to ASOIAF with the magic (maybe the heart of winter) or not?

Gaia theory sounds like hogwash to me. Whether or not thats whats happening in ASOIAF, it does seem to have the same end result.

[King Tyrion VIII]

Something like that was at the back of my mind. After all the survivors were hardly going to be offered tea, sympathy and counselling.

Right. They at least would have wanted to:

1. Get rid of witnesses

2. Prevent a NK repeat

3. Destroy abominations if they had been turned into something.

Or maybe they were considered abominations or some such simply because they were bent to the NK's will.

[Black Crow]

I think that its worth summarizing the evidence concerning the early history of the Watch because while some of the conclusions might be considered heretical the evidence on which they are based seems in retrospect to be very clear.

As I said in an earlier post, while the dating might be suspect, I don’t see that there’s a problem with the timelines insofar as they relate to the historical framework, so for the sake of convenience will stick to the traditional ones starting off with the Wall being built by parties unknown 8,000 years ago.

Given that the conversation over Sam’s findings in the Castle Black archives is told twice and from two different POVs it’s reasonable to conclude that its significant. Yet at first sight it appears not to be. Sam confesses he has found very little about the Others and in effect all that he does find is confirmation of what was already known about their appearing at night or in falling snow, and the cold. They are vulnerable to dragonglass, fire daunts them, and there’s a story about how the Last Hero got stuck in with a sword of dragonsteel. He complains of course that given more time he might well find more, but I reckon that the quality of his evidence suggests otherwise. Its significant that what he finds is no more than what we already know about the half-seen white shadows in the woods and that there is nothing of a Battle for the Dawn and their defeat. Mormont died complaining that the Watch had forgotten too much. I’d suggest that the significance of this twice presented conversation is that the Watch has not forgotten – it never knew in the first place.

This might sound heretical, but consider the evidence that we do have.

We’re told that the Black Gate is as old as the Wall itself, so we can reasonably conclude that the Nightfort has also existed in one form or another as long as the Wall and in association with the gate.

We’re also told that the Night Fort is twice as old as the other castles, from which we can safely conclude first that for 4,000 years it was the only castle on the Wall, and secondly; that the castle-building is contemporary with the Andal period.

This brings us back to one of the few things that Sam did find; the annual gift by the children of 100 dragonglass daggers to the Watch during the Age of Heroes. As that age of Heroes ended with the coming of the Andals its therefore possible to see a double connection, ie; the giving of the dragonglass ended ,and the building of the castles began with the coming of the Andals.

And that’s where we get to a heretical explanation of it all: that during the Age of Heroes the Nightfort was the only castle on the Wall and the Watch a small organization keeping the Black Gate.

Just by the by, are we (collectively) recasonably happy with this analysis - I've purposely filleted out some of the more heretical suggestions.

[wolfmaid7]

Gaia theory sounds like hogwash to me. Whether or not thats whats happening in ASOIAF, it does seem to have the same end result.

What the Gaia theory shows is that mayhem ensues when there is no balance(+ & -),it isn't necessarily hogwash.Death is integral for life to emerge and continue in acceptable equilibrium. Even in our own world we have seen the consequence of when a top predator has been removed i..e the California Gray Wolf in Yellowstone.Or when a top predator has been introduced in an ecosystem it NEVER was before i.e Burmese Python and Monitor lizards in the Florida.These simple changes had catastrophic effects on the native system.Prior to man's introduction to the land what was the relationship between the indigenous and the land,on the introduction of man into the system what had to be changed and was that change good for the entire system?

Just by the by, are we (collectively) recasonably happy with this analysis - I've purposely filleted out some of the more heretical suggestions.

On the Wall yep from where i sit i can see that.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Just by the by, are we (collectively) recasonably happy with this analysis - I've purposely filleted out some of the more heretical suggestions.

Looks like a good starting point to me...

[LynnS]

Just by the by, are we (collectively) recasonably happy with this analysis - I've purposely filleted out some of the more heretical suggestions.

I'm satisfied with the analysis.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Just by the by, are we (collectively) recasonably happy with this analysis - I've purposely filleted out some of the more heretical suggestions.

With the caveat that it's probably worth adding source text citations at some point along the way...

[Lord Ravenstark]

I think something worth bearing in mind here is that GRRM spends a lot of time being ambiguous. There are the different versions of the Azor Ahai stories; there is the uncertainty over the Prince that was Promised; all sorts of inconsistences over how the Wall was built; whether Bran the Builder ever existed and so on, not the least of which is this business of R'hllor and the Great Other. We have comes across all sorts of gods old and new, yet to so many readers R'hllor and the Great Other are the only show in town.

The Horn of Joruman is just one of those mysteries. Some say its to bring down the Wall, others that its to raise giants from the earth. It may do both or neither, so its probably unwise to make any kind of assumptions as to its powers or purpose at this stage.

The whole thing about the horn of Joramun never conviced me: how can this horn be so famous for crushing the Wall even when the Wall never felt.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

On the PTWP being Bran, if we have to force the prophesy and i apologize if this has been said, could it be his being "born" was when he woke up? Plenty of tears for salt and there was a fire when catlyn got shanked up so you have smoke i dont have a book infront of me so i dont know if their are any more connections...also dont know the significance of blood magic, ned killing Lady and Bran waking up

[redriver]

The whole thing about the horn of Joramun never conviced me: how can this horn be so famous for crushing the Wall even when the Wall never felt.

It never did.Besides,it's the Horn of Winter,not the Horn of Joramun.The difference could be significant.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

It never did.Besides,it's the Horn of Winter,not the Horn of Joramun.The difference could be significant.

Yeah, that's a bit funny to me. Because the initial phrase we see (apparently from the story as told by Old Nan) is "and Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth." But thereafter, whenever anyone speaks just of the horn itself, they refer to it as "the Horn of Joramun" - and the assumption seems to be that blowing the horn would reduce the Wall to rubble - which, as redriver says, hasn't actually happened yet.

("Joramun" looks enough like "Jörmungandr" to convince me that these stories really are connected to Euron Greyjoy's dragon horn in some fashion. And I think Euron's horn really might destroy the wall. Not sure anyone would call that thing a Horn of Winter, though...)

To me, this is one instance of what is starting to look like a potential New Age of Heroes, where certain characters/objects in our story seem to reprise the roles of legendary figures in westerosi myth. I don't see it in full swing yet, but the suggestion is definitely because GRRM has planted so many parallels with his character names and story lines.

And it's hard not to wonder if that's part of GRRM's project, as the boundaries begin to blur during the Song of Ice and Fire. Already we see the distinction between LIFE and DEATH breaking down. Perhaps we will also begin to have difficulty distinguishing BEGINNINGS from ENDINGS, and PAST from FUTURE.

(ETA: Further thoughts.)

[King Tyrion VIII]

Beginnings and endings? Past and future? Im lost.

[wolfmaid7]

I want to throw something out there,Ned was really lackadaisical with the info he got from Benjen,didn't he grasped the seriousness of what his brother was telling him?

"He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well." AGOT,Catelyn 1.

So apparently,Gared wasn't the first deserter he had caught,and Ned thinks it was Wildlings? Really ? I wonder what was the full content of those letters from Benjen? I know he talks about possibly calling the Banners to deal with Mance,but did Ned really think Mance and Wildlings were scaring Rangers into desertion,furthermore did Benjen?

[alienarea]

Beginnings and endings? Past and future? Im lost.

Or maybe you're LOST. "It only ends once, everything else is just progress."

[King Tyrion VIII]

Or maybe you're LOST. "It only ends once, everything else is just progress."

Lol alrighty.

[Capon Breath]

I want to throw something out there,Ned was really lackadaisical with the info he got from Benjen,didn't he grasped the seriousness of what his brother was telling him?

"He was the fourth this year," Ned said grimly. "The poor man was half-mad. Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him." He sighed. "Ben writes that the strength of the Night's Watch is down below a thousand. It's not only desertions. They are losing men on rangings as well." AGOT,Catelyn 1.

So apparently,Gared wasn't the first deserter he had caught,and Ned thinks it was Wildlings? Really ? I wonder what was the full content of those letters from Benjen? I know he talks about possibly calling the Banners to deal with Mance,but did Ned really think Mance and Wildlings were scaring Rangers into desertion,furthermore did Benjen?

I posted this at the back end of 75 kinda addressing the same point. There's something fishy going on with how much Ned doesn't remember.....

I can't help but think that if there is a Stark secret passed from Ned to Robb it would involve winter, Winterfell and whatever is in the crypts. If it does then I would have to conclude Robb didn't know Any secrets as he doesn't make any immediate effort to get back to Winterfell once it falls to Theon.

So much is made of "the North Remembers" when it clearly doesn't that I suspect some sort of magical influence. A kind of mass memory block. Or maybe it's simpler as someone suggested that Brandon knew and wasn't supposed to die before passing the info on.

Didn't GRRM once state that the scenario today as caused by events 16 yrs ago? Could this be part of it? The WW are back on the scene because of something the Starks of Winterfell forgot? Maybe they are supposed to Make some sort of regular sacrifice/ offering or something? I always though it odd that the only thing we consistently see Ned passing down is the need to be-head people with the family blade named ice......

[Black Crow]

The whole thing about the horn of Joramun never conviced me: how can this horn be so famous for crushing the Wall even when the Wall never felt.

I'm not so sure it is famous for that, or rather that's its legendary purpose. As Redriver points out Old Nan calls it the Horn of Winter although I can easily see it being also known as Joruman's horn if he was reputed to have been the one who blew it. Where I think the Wall may come into it is that it is reputed to have great powers and therefore might be reckoned capable of blasting a way through the Wall; which obviously isn't the same thing as being its purpose.

While we do have examples of powerful horns; that dragon horn for instance, or the Horn of Herrock which seems to open gates, I think that on the present evidence Redriver's theory that it is the red comet has a lot of merit. We've seen how many different names were applied to it during its latest pass. Horns are often blown to herald things and both then and now its appearance heralds the appearance of a bad Winter, and arguably the business of blowing the Horn of Winter waking giants might be comparable with Qhorin's warning of the old powers wakening.

What Joruman might have had to do with it I don't know, but Mormont didn't light his lantern.

[Harlan]

I can't help but think that if there is a Stark secret passed from Ned to Robb it would involve winter, Winterfell and whatever is in the crypts. If it does then I would have to conclude Robb didn't know Any secrets as he doesn't make any immediate effort to get back to Winterfell once it falls to Theon.

So much is made of "the North Remembers" when it clearly doesn't that I suspect some sort of magical influence. A kind of mass memory block. Or maybe it's simpler as someone suggested that Brandon knew and wasn't supposed to die before passing the info on.

Didn't GRRM once state that the scenario today as caused by events 16 yrs ago? Could this be part of it? The WW are back on the scene because of something the Starks of Winterfell forgot? Maybe they are supposed to Make some sort of regular sacrifice/ offering or something? I always though it odd that the only thing we consistently see Ned passing down is the need to be-head people with the family blade named ice......

We don't know what the secret is (assuming it exists). It may have nothing to do with having a stark in winterfell. It may be that Robb knows that he doesn't have to be in winterfell because of what his father told him. Truth is, we have no idea what the stark secret is (assuming it exists)

I don't recall any such statement from GRRM. If he did make that statement, he may have simply meant that 16 years ago was when Robert's rebellion took place which set into motion virtually all of the plots in aSoIaF.

[Harlan]

I'm not so sure it is famous for that, or rather that's its legendary purpose. As Redriver points out Old Nan calls it the Horn of Winter although I can easily see it being also known as Joruman's horn if he was reputed to have been the one who blew it. Where I think the Wall may come into it is that it is reputed to have great powers and therefore might be reckoned capable of blasting a way through the Wall; which obviously isn't the same thing as being its purpose.

While we do have examples of powerful horns; that dragon horn for instance, or the Horn of Herrock which seems to open gates, I think that on the present evidence Redriver's theory that it is the red comet has a lot of merit. We've seen how many different names were applied to it during its latest pass. Horns are often blown to herald things and both then and now its appearance heralds the appearance of a bad Winter, and arguably the business of blowing the Horn of Winter waking giants might be comparable with Qhorin's warning of the old powers wakening.

What Joruman might have had to do with it I don't know, but Mormont didn't light his lantern.

Correct me if I am wrong, but Jorroman was the wildling king who helped overthrow the night's king. Given this information, it may be that Jorroman's horn was just a normal horn which he blew to signal his attack on the wall. This would mean that Jorroman;s horn metaphorically tore down the wall by having the night's watch removed. The horn didn't actually do anything though, it just signalled the attack.