Heresy 76

[LynnS]

I like the notion of a there being a connection between the Night's Watch and the Green Men. Perhaps we'll find a Green Gate on the Isle of Faces? Could Howland Reed have "taken the green" following his pilgrimage there during the year of the false spring?

I find the names of the castle keeps on the wall suggestive. There is the Greyguard and the Greenguard. Also references to gates: Stonedoor, Queensgate (Snowgate), and Rimegate. The Sentinel Stand between the Shadow Tower and the Greyguard. Is this the resting place of the 79 Sentinels? The Long Barrow... to name a few. There is also Queenscrown directly south of the Night Fort. I expect that there are at least five gates through the wall.

Going back to Howland Reed and the Tourney at Harrenhal; I was always confused by the fact that Howland tells Ned that he has been bringing flowers to Lyanna every day and that she always loved them (the blue roses). My understanding is that the blue roses are only found in the glass house at Winterfell. So it seems to me that Howland was part of Ned's party when they arrived at the Tower of Joy and presumeably freed Lyanna; but that she died at Winterfell with Ned arriving after his journey to return the Red Stallion to Lady Dustin and the Arther Dayne's Sword to Lady Ashara.

And I also wonder how Howland intervened to stop Arthur Dayne from killing Ned and whether or not that was something that happened at Harrenhal. Selmy implies that Ashara turned to "Stark" after being rejected by Rheagar as Queen of Love and Beauty. But which Stark? Brynden, Benjen or Ned? I'm inclined to think that it was Brynden given his proclivities described by Lady Dustin. That his sister was dishonored in some way.

Or perhaps Benjen. Could this be the reason he joined the Night's Watch? He does warn Jon that he doesn't know what he would be giving up; never know the love of a woman or the joy of holding your own child.... something like that.

Edit: One curious thing about Jojen contracting greywater fever by inhaling too much water and clay. What was that all about? Was he told that he could breathe under water if only he tried instead of flying by jumping off a cliff?

[King of Winters]

This is pretty similar to wolfmaid's theory of periodic cold as an inherent element of Westeros, no?

Have you got a link to it?

[JonNonRegis]

Yeah... here.

The full theory can be found by scrolling up.

[Black Crow]

Yeah, I'd guess that if the Gate is the same Gate, then the password is the same password. More likely, the new Watch buried the old Gate (by building above and around it), and opened up new passages through the Wall for transit. This would have contributed to the transition in popular thinking - from considering the Wall a supernatural boundary guarding against a supernatural foe, to seeing it as merely a physical boundary protecting from natural threats.

(Edited for grammar)

I'd be inclined to wonder whether there was a password originally. The words spoken by Sam are exactly those of the current oath. He doesn't say the whole oath of course, but the absence of any difference in the words which he does speak makes me think that far from being significant its just a matter of placing sufficient words on the page to identify the oath without repeating the whole damn thing.

Basically what I'm suggesting is that the portal was just a portal, relying on the Nights Watch for security. Then comes the changing of the guard and the castles, each with its ground level gate. he Black Gate is redunant, but needs to be sealed by the "new" Watch because there are too many things going bump in the night.

[WWCED]

With regards to the Black Gate, and the control over movement North through the wall:

I sometimes wonder if the fall of the Night's King was a story of a power play alliance between the Stark of Winterfell and an Andal Lord/King, over control of the movement of people North. (Boldly striding into crackpottery here) Suppose that Joramun was actually an Andal (maybe even the Andal king cursed by Sherrit), who in conjunction with Winterfell decided to depose the NK and kill 2 birds with one stone:

1. The Stark of Winterfell becomes the power in the North

2. The new NW now controls access to the North.

This could be done by diversion. An attack, by Joramun, comes from North of the wall and occupies the attention of the NW, while Stark comes from the South catching them unawares and wiping them out. We now have an Andal in control of the Wall and the power vacuum left by the removal of the NK filled by the Stark in Winterfell. But there is a problem now. Those who knew the password for the gate are all gone, and only words remain. So reword the oath with the meaning lost and dig fortified holes through the wall.

So what to do with those that sided with the NK? Why send them through the Wall and let them fend for themselves of course, which is what the wildlings do to this day.

Lots of holes in this theory, but let the ice chips fall where ever they may.

[Black Crow]

I find the names of the castle keeps on the wall suggestive. There is the Greyguard and the Greenguard. Also references to gates: Stonedoor, Queensgate (Snowgate), and Rimegate. The Sentinel Stand between the Shadow Tower and the Greyguard. Is this the resting place of the 79 Sentinels? The Long Barrow... to name a few. There is also Queenscrown directly south of the Night Fort. I expect that there are at least five gates through the wall.

My understanding has always been that the castles each had their own gate. Queenscrown was nothing to do with the Watch. The story is that it was a holdfast where Queen Alysanne stayed on her visit north and in remembrance of the fact ("Mary Queen of Scots slept here") the owners gilded the crenelations to look like a crown

[Black Crow]

With regards to the Black Gate, and the control over movement North through the wall:

I sometimes wonder if the fall of the Night's King was a story of a power play alliance between the Stark of Winterfell and an Andal Lord/King, over control of the movement of people North. (Boldly striding into crackpottery here) Suppose that Joramun was actually an Andal (maybe even the Andal king cursed by Sherrit), who in conjunction with Winterfell decided to depose the NK and kill 2 birds with one stone:

1. The Stark of Winterfell becomes the power in the North

2. The new NW now controls access to the North.

This could be done by diversion. An attack, by Joramun, comes from North of the wall and occupies the attention of the NW, while Stark comes from the South catching them unawares and wiping them out. We now have an Andal in control of the Wall and the power vacuum left by the removal of the NK filled by the Stark in Winterfell. But there is a problem now. Those who knew the password for the gate are all gone, and only words remain. So reword the oath with the meaning lost and dig fortified holes through the wall.

So what to do with those that sided with the NK? Why send them through the Wall and let them fend for themselves of course, which is what the wildlings do to this day.

Lots of holes in this theory, but let the ice chips fall where ever they may.

Its not so far off what we have discussed before in Heresy about Stark of Winterfell cutting a deal with the Andals to bring down the Nights King in return for peace along the line, hence the building of the castles after the end of Age of Heroes.

Where I think I'd take issue is in the identification of Joruman as an Andal. There seems little doubt he was one of the Free Folk and Mance's people were looking for his grave up in the Frostfangs. Whatever way you cut it this does leave the problem of how a Wildling host was supposed to co-operate with Stark of Winterfell with the Wall in the way. A possible solution is that Joruman wasn't originally a Wildling, but after helping Stark of Winterfell to bring down King Sherrit (?) he was double-crossed and expelled beyond the wall

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

There seems little doubt [Joramun] was one of the Free Folk and Mance's people were looking for his grave up in the Frostfangs...

As an aside - how do we explain the presence of graves north of the Wall, given the presence of wights and the now-common knowledge that bodies of the deceased should be burned? Is the assumption here that Mance is at fault for the presence of Others and wights - having set loose the old powers during the course of his grave-robbery? Has this already been addressed somewhere?

[wolfmaid7]

My Geography teacher said something about the "Gaia Theory" a couple of days ago and said it was that the Earth was one big organism and that it creates natural disasters in order to control population. So I looked I up and here's the over view:

Could this be similar to ASOIAF with the magic (maybe the heart of winter) or not?

Totally agree with this, I think this is exactly what's going on and " the cold" is acting as the great equalizer. This is magic at its core, not choosing one side or the other but protecting only the balance.

I believe entities like the WWs are linked to it in that they ensure things don't get out of hand for if the Wights are left on their own their will be no humans left they would be chaos.

My complete thought is "the cold " will get pass the Wall and head south. Riddled by war, famine lots if people will die come Winter and they will rise. The sad thing is their is a possibility the WW will be stuck on the other side unable to herd them.

Nan was right in that the NW has weaken to the point where more things will be able to get through ( the cold) others may have to be let through ( WW).

[Black Crow]

As an aside - how do we explain the presence of graves north of the Wall, given the presence of wights and the now-common knowledge that bodies of the deceased should be burned? Is the assumption here that Mance is at fault for the presence of Others and wights - having set loose the old powers during the course of his grave-robbery? Has this already been addressed somewhere?

My thought on this is that they are old ones, going back to the kingdoms lost beyond the Wall in the Long Night.

[JonNonRegis]

My thought on this is that they are old ones, going back to the kingdoms lost beyond the Wall in the Long Night.

If so, it's odd Mance spent so much time trying to find Joramun's, since Joramun unquestionably lived after the Long Night and hence, in a time when the wildlings knew the dead could rise as wights.

The preponderance of graves -- as suggested by all the digging Mance's people did -- is also somewhat surprising.

I have no very good explanation for this except that GRRM hasn't always thought of everything.

[Black Crow]

That, or he's simply nodding to the way folklore wrongly attaches names to ancient features - Grimes Graves being an interesting case in point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimes_Graves

[JonNonRegis]

I also toyed with the idea that the wildlings stopped burning their dead at some point because there'd been no wights for thousands of years, and they'd stopped fearing any danger. Hence graves instead.

But Mormont seems pretty clear that "the wildlings burn their dead -- we've always known that," which implies it was going on long before the prologue of GoT.

[alienarea]

If so, it's odd Mance spent so much time trying to find Joramun's, since Joramun unquestionably lived after the Long Night and hence, in a time when the wildlings knew the dead could rise as wights.

The preponderance of graves -- as suggested by all the digging Mance's people did -- is also somewhat surprising.

I have no very good explanation for this except that GRRM hasn't always thought of everything.

And who would probably not be afraid of rising as a wight? The followers of the Night King.

What I am trying to say is that if the Night King was dealing with the Others his followers who died before he was overthrown were probably buried with a promise to rise again. Following that logic Joramun would have been a wildling in the service of the Night King. And the pale bride of the Night King might have been a wildling like it has been speculated in previous heresies.

That is close to the Jon situation. Except now there isn't a Stark in Winterfell to overthrow the next Night King.

Is this why there must be a Stark in Winterfell? Then the item that makes the Stark in Winterfell the failsafe for overthrowing the Night King has to be in Winterfell. Guess Mance figured that out before me.

[Urrax]

As for wilding graves, maybe they bury the ashes and bones. Even with modern high-temperature crematoriums, the skeleton survives and has to be pulverized.

[JonNonRegis]

As for wilding graves, maybe they bury the ashes and bones.

Plausible. Certainly more respectful to the dead than kicking over an ash pile with your boot.

[Black Crow]

I'm still inclined to think that they were barrows, predating the Long Night and that tradition had wrongly attached Joruman's name to one of them. I don't actually think its that important for they didn't find what they were looking for - so I suppose in that sense they patently weren't the post Long Night graves of Joruman and his followers.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

As for wilding graves, maybe they bury the ashes and bones. Even with modern high-temperature crematoriums, the skeleton survives and has to be pulverized.

Yes, that would make sense. Does GRRM tell us anything about skeleton-disposal procedures - either by the Watch or by the wildlings?

I'm still inclined to think that they were barrows, predating the Long Night and that tradition had wrongly attached Joruman's name to one of them. I don't actually think its that important for they didn't find what they were looking for - so I suppose in that sense they patently weren't the post Long Night graves of Joruman and his followers.

My curiosity had more to do with unintended consequences than with the question of whether they found what they were looking for. Basically, I wondered if opening old graves is what released the Others back into the world.

[Black Crow]

My curiosity had more to do with unintended consequences than with the question of whether they found what they were looking for. Basically, I wondered if opening old graves is what released the Others back into the world.

Definitely not. While there is disagreement on these here pages as to whether the blue-eyed lot have always been around or only popped up again recently, there's no doubt that they were around before the grave-robbing began since it was fear of them which allowed Mance to gather the Wildlings together in the first place.

[JungWheats]

There's also the possibility that the graves weren't necessarily graves; I feel like there's already enough contrasting data to assume that Mance was never actually looking for the Horn of Joramun. Nobody south of the Wall seems to think that the horn will bring down the Wall, except the one guy in Winterfell, who could be a Wildling or former Wildling in league with Mance and the GNC. When Bran recounts the story of Joramun early on in the series, there's no mention of a magic horn designed to destroy the Wall.

Why would anyone allied against the Others want to destroy the Wall anyways? How would you make a Horn with the magical properties of causing the Wall to fall? If you were to create such a thing, why not use it immediately if you went to the trouble to create it? Why would you then not pass it down to your heirs?

I have a strong feeling that the Horn of Joramun is a McGuffin, and its probably a bullshit cover story from Mance that conceals his true aims. He's definitely looking for something of archeological value, but what?

I think that there's a good chance that Mance is attempting to replicate the story of the Last Hero and his digging is aimed at finding entrances to the world of the Children. This seems more likely if he was checking barrows, since those tend to be made from stone slabs laid out, almost like manhole covers to the Children's world. In the UK these are sometimes called Hero's graves and Giant's graves, I think and are usually comprised of a little mound with a flat slab and something akin to a little house made out of a couple more little slabs, correct?