Heresy 76

[Adara]

We don't know what the secret is (assuming it exists). It may have nothing to do with having a stark in winterfell. It may be that Robb knows that he doesn't have to be in winterfell because of what his father told him. Truth is, we have no idea what the stark secret is (assuming it exists)

I don't recall any such statement from GRRM. If he did make that statement, he may have simply meant that 16 years ago was when Robert's rebellion took place which set into motion virtually all of the plots in aSoIaF.

Strikes me everytime, probably more than it should. Every House-words we know seem to describe the characteristics of the house. And the Starks? Winter is coming. Meaning to say, there's no house in Dorne that carries the words: so does summer...

[Black Crow]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Jorroman was the wildling king who helped overthrow the night's king. Given this information, it may be that Jorroman's horn was just a normal horn which he blew to signal his attack on the wall. This would mean that Jorroman;s horn metaphorically tore down the wall by having the night's watch removed. The horn didn't actually do anything though, it just signalled the attack.

That might be an option, but as always the problem is that we are dealing with what GRRM has deliberately set up as part of the myths and legends. There may be a Horn of Winter which Joruman once blew in the circumstances you suggest - or it may be something else as redriver suggests.

All we do know is that the information is deliberately vague and contradictory

[Le Rouge]

Strikes me everytime, probably more than it should. Every House-words we know seem to describe the characteristics of the house. And the Starks? Winter is coming. Meaning to say, there's no house in Dorne that carries the words: so does summer...

I can well imagine that there was a secret or an important information of some sort, that didn't reach Ned. Let's remember the deaths of Brandon and Richard: Brandon went to Kings Landing to bring Rhaegar to answer for the "abduction" of Lyanna, where he got arrested for attempted murder. His father was called down to Kings Landing to answer for the charges and was cooked. Trying to rescue Richard, Brandon strangled himself.

So there is a great possibility, that a secret died with them. I assume that Richard didn't expect that he and his son would die in Kings Landing and so didn't properly instruct Ned. What I can't imagine is that Ned, if he knew something, wouldn't tell Robb, before he left for Kings Landing.

Kings Landing, the bane of the Starks.

[redriver]

That might be an option, but as always the problem is that we are dealing with what GRRM has deliberately set up as part of the myths and legends. There may be a Horn of Winter which Joruman once blew in the circumstances you suggest - or it may be something else as redriver suggests.

All we do know is that the information is deliberately vague and contradictory

And it really is just a suggestion.Making sense of the early days is like having a quarter of the pieces of a jigsaw puzzle.

[Capon Breath]

We don't know what the secret is (assuming it exists). It may have nothing to do with having a stark in winterfell. It may be that Robb knows that he doesn't have to be in winterfell because of what his father told him. Truth is, we have no idea what the stark secret is (assuming it exists)

It's certainly true that we don't know if there is a secret or what it is about. But we do know some things.

• Winter is coming

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell

Former Kings of Winter

High proportion of Stark LCs of the NW

Lots of circumstantial evidence of something in WIntefell Crypts

I'd use that as at least circumstantial evidence that whatever family secret there is (if there indeed is one) is to do with Winter & Winterfell.

I can't source the "16yrs ago statement" i only ever heard other people reference it (probably from a SSM) sorry - i'm using 3rd hand info so it could be wrong.

[The Dragon has three heads]

On the PTWP being Bran, if we have to force the prophesy and i apologize if this has been said, could it be his being "born" was when he woke up? Plenty of tears for salt and there was a fire when catlyn got shanked up so you have smoke i dont have a book infront of me so i dont know if their are any more connections...also dont know the significance of blood magic, ned killing Lady and Bran waking up

Thats just one of many, many possibilities, even Beric with his starry cloak, smoky battle and tears is an AA candidate...and one of the only ones to wield a flaming sword mind you...

I think he's there to show the blood of the reanimated red lot is what brings the fire to the sword, Nissa Nissa may have been a red priestess...or not.

Regarding Bran, its not a horrible conclusion.

Perhaps there was a seven pointed star present at Brans birth, Catalyn seems to like her gods, not improbable.

[mrbutabara]

Just by the by, are we (collectively) recasonably happy with this analysis - I've purposely filleted out some of the more heretical suggestions.

I think this is good.

[avernite]

Just by the by, are we (collectively) recasonably happy with this analysis - I've purposely filleted out some of the more heretical suggestions.

Certainly, I agree. We might bicker about what it means, but the theory as you lay it out seems eminently reasonable.

As to Rickard and Brandon: Rickard left behind his Valyrian Steel sword. As a great Lordof Westeros, would he do so if he didn't think something fishy was happening? And if eh did, wouldn't he have left information if anything went wrong?

Moreover, if the Starks knew somekind of secret but kept it THAT secret, how did it last millennia?

[hecameburning]

I have a feeling Rickard and Brandon had no idea about the Stark secrets we speak off. I think they have been long forgotten/misinterpreted over time.

I believe Sam will find out what the Stark secrets are while in Old Town.

[alienarea]

It's certainly true that we don't know if there is a secret or what it is about. But we do know some things.

• Winter is coming
• There must always be a Stark in Winterfell
• Former Kings of Winter
• High proportion of Stark LCs of the NW
• Lots of circumstantial evidence of something in WIntefell Crypts

I'd use that as at least circumstantial evidence that whatever family secret there is (if there indeed is one) is to do with Winter & Winterfell.

I can't source the "16yrs ago statement" i only ever heard other people reference it (probably from a SSM) sorry - i'm using 3rd hand info so it could be wrong.

Or it is very simple ... ;-)

There is one more Stark left in Winterfell (there always has to be a Stark in Winterfell), and he is a former king of winter and hiding in the crypts, basically he's the Stark failsafe. And his name is Winter.

Winter Stark is coming.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Or it is very simple ... ;-)

There is one more Stark left in Winterfell (there always has to be a Stark in Winterfell), and he is a former king of winter and hiding in the crypts, basically he's the Stark failsafe. And his name is Winter.

Winter Stark is coming.

Or the original phrase could have been distorted over time. Maybe they meant Snark. "There must always be a snark in Winterfell?"

[JonNonRegis]

Or the original phrase could have been distorted over time. Maybe they meant Snark. "There must always be a snark in Winterfell?"

Aha! This explains the Littlefinger/Sansa story -- GRRM's ultimate goal is clearly to get his snarkiest character into Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

Perhaps the grumpkins got him...

Seriously though, as I've suggested before I don't think it should necessarily be read too literally; but rather that there should always be a Stark of Winterfell ruling over the north. Perhaps that was the reason why Torrhen Stark knelt, lest the Starks be wiped out in another field of fire.

[JonNonRegis]

I have a feeling Rickard and Brandon had no idea about the Stark secrets we speak off. I think they have been long forgotten/misinterpreted over time.

I think so too. The Stark line is (going by the traditional timeline) at least eight thousand years old, and for much of that period there was no convenient way to write anything down.

The Musgrave Ritual, by comparison, at least took place in a literate society.

[Black Crow]

I think so too. The Stark line is (going by the traditional timeline) at least eight thousand years old, and for much of that period there was no convenient way to write anything down.

The Musgrave Ritual, by comparison, at least took place in a literate society.

I'm inclined to agree. There is a theory that Rickard had or ought to have passed on the "secret" to Brandon, but not to Ned as the younger son and that in consequence it was lost when Aerys had them executed. While outwardly plausible I think this founders on the simple fact that their fate was hardly unique in that over the years a goodly number of Starks shuffled off before their time.

I would venture to suggest that while all Starks have had it impressed upon them that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell and that Winter is coming, in recent years at least none of them have a clue what it means.

[Adara]

Or it is very simple ... ;-)

There is one more Stark left in Winterfell (there always has to be a Stark in Winterfell), and he is a former king of winter and hiding in the crypts, basically he's the Stark failsafe. And his name is Winter.

Winter Stark is coming.

I love you :blush:

sorry...

I'm inclined to agree. There is a theory that Rickard had or ought to have passed on the "secret" to Brandon, but not to Ned as the younger son and that in consequence it was lost when Aerys had them executed. While outwardly plausible I think this founders on the simple fact that their fate was hardly unique in that over the years a goodly number of Starks shuffled off before their time.

I would venture to suggest that while all Starks have had it impressed upon them that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell and that Winter is coming, in recent years at least none of them have a clue what it means.

so would you think its:

1. A Stark per bloodline

or

2. A "Stark" as a reliable person, that knows about the secret (if it exists), someone like a maester? Bannerman?

[King of Winters]

Yeah... here.

The full theory can be found by scrolling up.

Good theory.

[Black Crow]

so would you think its:

1. A Stark per bloodline

or

2. A "Stark" as a reliable person, that knows about the secret (if it exists), someone like a maester? Bannerman?

Its blood, it always comes down to blood in this story. The problem may be that they have forgotten or don't fully understand why.

[Frey family reunion]

One issue I have with Sam's research about the Long Night. It was written by the Andals who were presumably interpreting the runes of the ancient First Men, that the Others were particularly susceptible to Dragonsteel. Surely this must have been a misinterpretation of the original runes, for the First Men would have had no word for steel, because there is nothing to suggest that steel existed during that time or at least had been introduced to Westeros by the Andals at that time.

[Capon Breath]

Perhaps the grumpkins got him...

.

While you brought it up.....

No love on Heresy for Snarks = a corruption of Starks? And representing "something scary out it he woods"