Heresy 76

[Black Crow]

For this it would be very useful to know how much height was added during a certain time, i.e. do we have any quote that says under Lord Commander x the wall was raised y feet?

Also, if the initial wall was a line of magic with the black gate in between, maybe only the nightwatch who said the oath in the old tongue was allowed to pass?

I have also brought up the point of the purpose of the nightwatch beyond the wall. If we stick with this scenario of the wall being a magic border then I can only think of the ranging beyond the wall as a ritual sacrifice, i.e. they went ranging maybe once or twice a year with a fixed number and none / not all of them returned? A bit like the corn king ...

The short answer to the first question is a very solid no. The only reference to this is Mormont's complaint that once every Lord Commander considered it his duty to build the Wall higher, but now they can't even look after what they've got. After all it took us long enough to figure out the significance of the castles.

As to the Night Watch ranging beyond, I would suggest that the scenario discussed on page 1 of the current thread offers a partial solution in that initially the Watch were not rangers but gatekeepers, and perhaps no more than 100 strong. The ranging may only have started with the castles, or rather the castles may have been built not to defend the Wall from an attack which had not manifested itself over the preceding 4,000 years, but to facilitating the ranging as they hunted down the children and the other old races.

[Yield.]

The short answer to the first question is a very solid no. The only reference to this is Mormont's complaint that once every Lord Commander considered it his duty to build the Wall higher, but now they can't even look after what they've got. After all it took us long enough to figure out the significance of the castles.

As to the Night Watch ranging beyond, I would suggest that the scenario discussed on page 1 of the current thread offers a partial solution in that initially the Watch were not rangers but gatekeepers, and perhaps no more than 100 strong. The ranging may only have started with the castles, or rather the castles may have been built not to defend the Wall from an attack which had not manifested itself over the preceding 4,000 years, but to facilitating the ranging as they hunted down the children and the other old races.

I am assuming you mean that they did this after the original purpose of the Watch was lost correct?

Referent to the building of the Wall and the Wall in it's original state, could not the oath be an indicator here? I refer to the part about 'I am the watcher on the walls,' plural. This seems to indicate more than one.

I know others have said that it could indicate that the castles where there before the wall was finished and the builders linked up the castle wall to create the whole Wall. But that is not what occurs to me.

If this was brought up before forgive me. I was thinking of the present day wall and how wide it is. What if at the start there were 2 walls. A north wall and a south wall and the Black Gate was the connection between the no man's land between?

In other words, there was a double barrier built. One by the First Men and one by the Children each a guarding what the other feared the most? One guarding the FM from the dangers of the north and the other creating a safe haven for the Children should ever they need it. The 100 pieces of obsidian could then have been payment for the manning of the Black Gate.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

More or less, although I'm sure that scrambling over the Wall to avoid passport control has a long history

I think the idea of a "property line" might be appropriate for describing the Wall in its original form/purpose. Even better, you might think of it as an "electric fence." An electric fence keeps a dog on his owner's property, because it interacts with the dog's collar - administering a shock when the animal tries to cross the property line. A neighbor could still enter the property without receiving a shock himself. What keeps the neighbor out is a healthy respect for the unfriendly dog.

---

LEGEND:

Electric Fence - old magic, strong spells in Wall

Dog - Others

Neighbor - First Men

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Except she's either dead or in a Dreadfort gaol.

Well, yeah. There is that...

[LynnS]

The idea that the oath has changed from guarding the walls to the wall is interesting. I think I subscribe to the idea that there were multiple forts constructing sections of the wall as part of a larger effort to build something equivalent to Hadrian's Wall. It seems logical to me that they would each have their own Lord Commander answerable to their own liege lord; perhaps all bannermen of the Starks. Just the names of the Keeps suggest communities from the same populace having a responsibility for their section.

Ranging may not have been so much about killing off the wildling population as it could have been about appropriating a labor force to build the wall. In other words, "Bood built it."

I imagine the Black Gate as a small holdfast guarding a road through the haunted forest; the wall as the edges of the forest; a wall of sentinel trees as the demarcation line containing the boundary magic. The stone wall and castle keeps built at the same time at the command of the Andal Kings with the ice added on completion of the stone foundation. If each castle keep had the same housing capacity of Castle Black at 5000 or so; that's a work force of 85,000. I'm not sure that the wall was raised by great magic. Only built on top of it.

[JonNonRegis]

What we reckoned in heresy some time back is that there are actually two sets of seasons; the regular ones making up the 12 month year and an overlying set of Great Seasons, which affect them.

GRRM has actually gone on record on this point.

"Twelve moon tuns to a year, as on earth. Even on our earth, years have nothing to do with the seasons, or with the cycles of the moon. A year is a measure of a solar cycle, of how long it takes the earth to make one complete revolution around the sun. The same is true for the world of Westeros. Seasons do not come into it."

[JonNonRegis]

The Wall as originally built has no defensive features

It could very well have had the ancient magic that prevents wights (at least) from crossing it, which I would certainly call defensive. That is, the chronological sequence was

1. Long Night with wights and Popsicles

2. Wall built with anti-wight magic (at least)

This is much easier for me to believe than

1. Wall built with no defensive capabilities, which creates the Long Night

2. Then the Long Night occurs with wights and Popsicles

3. Four thousand years later, magic is somehow added to the Wall to block wights (at least)

[redriver]

GRRM has actually gone on record on this point.

"Twelve moon tuns to a year, as on earth. Even on our earth, years have nothing to do with the seasons, or with the cycles of the moon. A year is a measure of a solar cycle, of how long it takes the earth to make one complete revolution around the sun. The same is true for the world of Westeros. Seasons do not come into it."

But I suspect comets do....

[Urrax]

It could very well have had the ancient magic that prevents wights (at least) from crossing it, which I would certainly call defensive. That is, the chronological sequence was

1. Long Night with wights and Popsicles

2. Wall built with anti-wight magic (at least)

This is much easier for me to believe than

1. Wall built with no defensive capabilities, which creates the Long Night

2. Then the Long Night occurs with wights and Popsicles

3. Four thousand years later, magic is somehow added to the Wall to block wights (at least)

:agree:

[redriver]

I know BC made a comment earlier that the old timelines can be scrunched up as long as the sequence of events remains the same.But I have to challenge the sequence as well.

The current arrangement,largely derived from Luwin makes little sense.And he's not exactly reliable,(though he is nice and well intentioned).

[Black Crow]

It could very well have had the ancient magic that prevents wights (at least) from crossing it, which I would certainly call defensive. That is, the chronological sequence was

1. Long Night with wights and Popsicles

2. Wall built with anti-wight magic (at least)

This is much easier for me to believe than

1. Wall built with no defensive capabilities, which creates the Long Night

2. Then the Long Night occurs with wights and Popsicles

3. Four thousand years later, magic is somehow added to the Wall to block wights (at least)

Ah well, I was referring to the physical state of the Wall. We know that there is old and powerful magic worked into it, but once again that validates the point. As built it was, as Snowfyre suggests, like an electric fence. No way through for the magical lot to the north and no way over exept for a few hardy individuals (and why?) from the south - except by the gate. And that comes back to my earlier point that tyhe castles have not been built to defend the Wall but to allow the ranging beyond it - on horses.

[Frey family reunion]

As a defensive barrier, the Wall at least does a good job of keeping out Giants and their Mammoths as a physical barrier, and it at least slows down a large scale invasion force of men.

[Yield.]

'The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes.

So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.'

- Luwin, AGoT

If this is the sequence you mean redriver, then yes there are definite problems with it.

[Black Crow]

Just a naughty thought.

If we say that the old pre-Andal Watch were just gatekeepers and that on the evidence of the dragonglass gift may just have been 100 strong, what about the other side. We've talked rather a lot about how there don't actually seem to be too many of Craster's sons out there. Way back in the day were there 100 men of the Watch on this side of the gate and 100 of the blue-eyed lot on the other?

[Black Crow]

'The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children. In time, the First Men even put aside the gods they had brought with them, and took up the worship of the secret gods of the wood. The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes.

So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms, yet finally there came a time, many centuries later, when other peoples crossed the narrow sea.'

- Luwin, AGoT

If this is the sequence you mean redriver, then yes there are definite problems with it.

Absolutely. I was thinking about this when quoting that piece on another thread. Luwin gives 4,000 years between the Pact and the coming of the Andals. The way be tells it the Long Night came, if not in the middle then part way through it. The only way this works is if we take the earliest (supposed) appearance of the Andals in the Vale 6,000 years ago, but I really can't see that affecting the rest of Westeros. Really we ought to be looking at the main invasion period, 4,000 years ago, but if that's so then it offers an intriguing alternate timeline, ie:

The Long Night was ended by the Pact.

[King of Winters]

Just a naughty thought.

If we say that the old pre-Andal Watch were just gatekeepers and that on the evidence of the dragonglass gift may just have been 100 strong, what about the other side. We've talked rather a lot about how there don't actually seem to be too many of Craster's sons out there. Way back in the day were there 100 men of the Watch on this side of the gate and 100 of the blue-eyed lot on the other?

Mmm, interesting thought. Have guards of both sides guard the Wall to make sure one didn't break the Pact.

[Yield.]

Absolutely. I was thinking about this when quoting that piece on another thread. Luwin gives 4,000 years between the Pact and the coming of the Andals. The way be tells it the Long Night came, if not in the middle then part way through it. The only way this works is if we take the earliest (supposed) appearance of the Andals in the Vale 6,000 years ago, but I really can't see that affecting the rest of Westeros. Really we ought to be looking at the main invasion period, 4,000 years ago, but if that's so then it offers an intriguing alternate timeline, ie:

The Long Night was ended by the Pact.

Hmm if we take the earliest invasion of the Andals, 6,000 years ago and have them take 2,000 years to create their Six Kingdoms in the south, then add the North as the Seventh that means that the Long Night took place with the Andals already in Westeros. Or is the implication the settling of the Andals caused it? Do we know if the North came to an agreement with the Andals and became the 7K before Aegon and that trigger the LN?

See Luwin's wording is so bad that you could even it take to mean the Pact ended with Torrhen bending the knee to the dragons.

[Black Crow]

Hmm if we take the earliest invasion of the Andals, 6,000 years ago and have them take 2,000 years to create their Six Kingdoms in the south, then add the North as the Seventh that means that the Long Night took place with the Andals already in Westeros. Or is the implication the settling of the Andals caused it? Do we know if the North came to an agreement with the Andals and became the 7K before Aegon and that trigger the LN?

See Luwin's wording is so bad that you could even it take to mean the Pact ended with Torrhen bending the knee to the dragons.

I'm rather taking it as implying that we start off with the arrival of the First Men in the Dawn Age, initiating prolonged a period of war with the children. During the course of that war the Children successively call down the Hammer of the Waters on the Arm of Dorne and the Neck. It may be significant that the latter was intended to divide Westeros in two. Both involved the use of dark magics and both failed. Then came the Long Night and the building of the Wall - again dividing Westeros in two using dark magic. This time the First Men have had enough. The thirteen heroes go looking for the children. The Pact is agreed and ushers in the 4,000 year long Age of Heroes, until the Andals tool up.

What's odd about all of this is that Maester Luwin's history is substantially the same as the one which prefaces the Hedge Night. However the latter makes no mention at all of the Long Night and Maester Luwin just has that throwaway remark about the Pact lasting through the age of heroes, the long night and the birth of the seven kingdoms, which rather suggests its a bolt-on accessory to the Hedge Night history rather than integral to it. I just think I'd be careful about being too dogmatic about the Long Night being a totally random event occurring after the Pact rather than integral to it.

[Urrax]

Sorry, what's the Hedge Night history?

[Black Crow]

GRRM's Duck and Egg novella the Hedge Knight (not Night - my typo), which begins as follows:

The setting for the books is the great continent of Westeros, in a world both like and unlike our own, where the seasons last for years and sometimes decades. Standing hard against the sunset sea at the western edge of the known world, Westeros stretches from the red sands of Dorne in the south to the icy mountains and frozen fields of the north, where snow falls even during the long summers.
The children of the forest were the first known inhabitants of Westeros, during the Dawn of Days: a race small of stature who made their homes in the greenwood, and carved strange faces in the bone-white weirwood trees. Then came the First Men, who crossed a land bridge from the larger continent to the east with their bronze swords and horses, and warred against the children for centuries before finally making peace with the older race and adopting their nameless, ancient gods. The Compact marked the beginning of the Age of Heroes, when the First Men and the children shared Westeros, and a hundred petty kingdoms rose and fell. Other invaders came in turn. The Andals crossed the narrow sea in ships, and with iron and fire they swept across the kingdoms of the First Men, and drove the children from their forests, putting many of the weirwoods to the ax. They brought their own faith, worshiping a god with seven aspects whose
symbol was a seven-pointed star. Only in the far north did the First Men, led by the Starks of Winterfell, throw back the newcomers. Elsewhere the Andals triumphed, and raised kingdoms of their own. The children of the forest dwindled and disappeared, while the First Men intermarried with their conquerors.

The Rhoynar arrived some thousands of years after the Andals, and came not as invaders but as refugees, crossing the seas in ten thousand ships to escape the growing might of the Freehold of Valyria. The lords freeholder of Valyria ruled the greater part of the known world; they were sorcerers, great in lore, and alone of all the races of man they had learned to breed dragons and bend them to their will. Four hundred years before the opening of A Song of Ice and Fire , however, the Doom descended on Valyria, destroying the city in a single night. Thereafter the great Valyrian empire disintegrated into dissension, barbarism, and war.
Westeros, across the narrow sea, was spared the worst of the chaos that followed. By that time only seven kingdoms remained where once there had been hundreds—but they would not stand for much longer. A scion of lost Valyria named Aegon Targaryen landed at the mouth of the Blackwater with a small army, his two sisters (who were also his wives), and three great dragons. Riding on dragonback, Aegon and his sisters won battle after battle, and subdued six of the seven Westerosi kingdoms by fire, sword, and treaty. The conqueror collected the melted, twisted blades of his fallen foes, and used them to make a monstrous, towering barbed seat: the Iron Throne, from which he ruled henceforth as Aegon, the First of His Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, and Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.
The dynasty founded by Aegon and his sisters endured for most of three hundred years. Another Targaryen king, Daeron the Second, later brought Dorne into the realm, uniting all of Westeros under a single ruler. He did so by marriage, not conquest, for the last of the dragons had died half a century before.The Hedge Knight, published in the first Legends , takes place in the last days of Good King Daeron’s reign, about a hundred years before the opening of the first of the Ice and Fire novels, with the realm at peace and the Targaryen dynasty at its height. It tells the story of the first meeting between Dunk, a hedge knight’s squire, and Egg, a boy who is rather more than he seems, and of the great tourney at Ashford Meadow. The Sworn Sword, the tale that follows, picks up their story a year or so later.