Heresy 26

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 26

If you haven’t been here before you’ll find that this is a wide ranging and pretty eclectic thread, based on the belief that what we were told in AGoT was mince; that Jon is not going to turn out to be Azor Ahai and will not ride dragons to victory over the Others to earn his place on the Iron Throne. As GRRM himself said in a recent interview:

…it was always my intention: to play with the reader’s expectations. Before I was a writer I was a voracious reader and I am still, and I have read many, many books with very predictable plots. As a reader, what I seek is a book that delights and surprises me. I want to not know what is gonna happen. For me, that’s the essence of storytelling and for this reason I want my readers to turn the pages with increasing fever: to know what happens next. There are a lot of expectations, mainly in the fantasy genre, which you have the hero and he is the chosen one, and he is always protected by his destiny. I didn’t want it for my books.

There are various story arcs being acted out in the Song of Ice and Fire, often intertwined, but here we try not always successfully to concentrate on the North, and in particular Jon’s continuing story arc (“Oh, you think he’s dead do you?” – GRRM), the true identity of the Others and the relationship GRRM has admitted that they have with those deeply creepy Children in the darkness.

If you’ve been around the thread for a while, you’ll know what it’s about. If you’re new, don’t hesitate to ask, and if you have the fortitude for it links to the previous chapters of the thread are given below.

Above all don’t be intimidated. Offer your opinions and theories and see what happens. Even if its something we’ve discussed before your time, we’ll be happy to explain what went down and it usually turns out that a fresh angle can be illuminating. One poster recently asked what we Heretics believe in and defend? The short answer is that we don’t.

While there is a fairly strong belief that much of what is going on is based on Celtic and Norse mythology and that the Others are a Faerie race this view isn’t universally held.

There are however one or two core heresies that since things got a lot darker (literally as well as figuratively) in ADwD the Starks are not as nice and cuddly as they might once have appeared, but there’s still no solid agreement on exactly what their relation is to the Faerie races, who built the Wall (and why) the true origin of the Watch, or just how long ago – or how rather how recently – certain key events occurred and how some of them may be connected.

All we insist upon in this thread is that discussion – and arguments – be conducted with reference to the text, a respect for the opinions of others, and above all good humour. :commie:

[Black Crow]

Previous heresies for reference:

Heresy five (with links to earlier heresies),

Heresy six, (inc. the complete Old Nan’s Tales)

Heresy seven,

Heresy eight,

Heresy nine,

Heresy ten,

Heresy eleven,

heresy twelve

heresy thirteen

http://asoiaf.wester...8801-heresy-14/

http://asoiaf.wester...9643-heresy-15/

http://asoiaf.wester...0033-heresy-16/

http://asoiaf.wester...0554-heresy-17/

http://asoiaf.wester...0972-heresy-18/

http://asoiaf.wester...1492-heresy-19/

http://asoiaf.wester...1971-heresy-20/

http://asoiaf.wester...2274-heresy-21/

http://asoiaf.wester...3225-heresy-22/

http://asoiaf.wester...4304-heresy-23/

http://asoiaf.wester...4991-heresy-24/

http://asoiaf.wester...530-heresy-25/

If this list appears a touch daunting, Heresy 6 with the complete Old Nan's Tales is worth bookmarking, and for the rest the really interesting stuff kicks in at Heresy 10 post #44 with the Sidhe reference

Heresy is good for you, question everything :commie: :commie: :commie:

[Black Crow]

And as threatened, for the benefit of those come recently to the Heresy thread cycle:

Professor Crow’s dissertation on the Others (updated version)

There are so far only two physical descriptions of White Walkers in text; first in the prologue to AGoT and then in the fight below the Fist.

The Others made no sound.

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, saw a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone…

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on the water with every step it took.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice.

Behind him, to right, to left, all around him the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere.

The Other said something in a language that Will did not know, his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking.

The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.

Then there’s Sam and Grenn in the retreat from the Fist as told in Storm of Swords 1:

On its back was a rider pale as ice… The Other slid gracefully from the saddle to stand upon the snow. Sword slim it was, and milky white. Its armor rippled and shifted as it moved, and its feet did not break the crust of the new fallen snow…

“Get away!” Grenn took a step, thrusting the torch out before him. “Away or you burn.” He poked at it with the flames.

The Other’s sword gleamed with a faint blue glow. It moved toward Grenn, lightning quick, slashing. When the ice blue blade brushed the flames, a screech stabbed Sam’s ears sharp as a needle. The head of the torch tumbled sideways to vanish beneath a deep drift of snow…

The wights had been slow clumsy things but the Other was light as snow on the wind. It slid away from Paul’s axe, armour rippling, and its crystal sword twisted and spun and slipped through the iron rings of Paul’s mail, through leather and wool and bone and flesh. It came out his back with a hissssssssssss and Sam heard Paul say “Oh” as he lost the axe. Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell. The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other’s grip…

And then he was stumbling forward, falling more than running, really, closing his eyes and shoving the dagger blindly out before him with both hands. He heard a crack, like the sound ice makes when it breaks beneath a man’s foot, and then a screech so shrill and sharp that he went staggering backward with his hands over his muffled ears, and fell hard on his arse.

When he opened his eyes the Other’s armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. “Mother, that’s cold!”

In both passages we can see they are tall, gaunt and hard featured with white skin and bright blue eyes, wearing stealth armour like that said by Maester Luwin to have been worn by the Wood Dancers

In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood.

We’ll come back to this melting into the wood in a moment, because now we also have a third description, provided by GRRM to the comic book artist Tommy Patterson:

“I had many talks with George. He told me of the ice swords, and the reflective, camouflaging armor that picks up the images of the things around it like a clear, still pond. He spoke a lot about what they were not, but what they were was harder to put into words. Here is what George said, in one e-mail: The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

And so we come to the Sidhe and although GRRM is obviously talking about how the Others should look rather than who they are, he’s picturing them in his mind as something like the Sidhe and in part two we’ll look at just how closely the two really do correspond.

[Black Crow]

Professor Crow’s updated dissertation on the Others part the second.

According to Old Nan, the Others “were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

Now there’s no doubt that they are cold, but look again at GRRM’s description: “The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.”

They are not dead, but different, so lets explore the Sidhe comparison a little further. A good starting place is the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aos_S%C3%AD which tells how they are said to live underground in the fairy mounds or hollow hills, or in an invisible world that coexists with the world of humans. There are obvious parallels here with the Children/Singers who certainly live underground, but its possible there may be a difference between their network of caves and the hollow hills – which may include both the Fist of the First Men and the Barrows.

And here’s the Reverend Robert Kirk of Aberfoyle writing in 1691:

These Siths or Fairies they call Sleagh Maith or the Good People...are said to be of middle nature between Man and Angel, as were Daemons thought to be of old; of intelligent fluidous Spirits, and light changeable bodies (lyke those called Astral) somewhat of the nature of a condensed cloud, and best seen in twilight. These bodies be so pliable through the sublety of Spirits that agitate them, that they can make them appear or disappear at pleasure

The disappearing business is reminiscent of both Maester Luwin’s (and later Asha’s) comments on how the Wood Dancers could seemingly melt into the woods, not to mention those condensed clouds, which were also discussed by the artist Tommy Patterson and which can be seen in John Macacio’s calendar painting – also much approved of by GRRM.

Physical descriptions, aside exploration of the folklore surrounding the Sidhe throws up a number of other interesting comparisons.

One of the most controversial questions on this forum used to be the fate of Craster’s sons, seemingly sacrificed to the Cold Gods, until Sam asks the older women who “they” are: “The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

It amounts to a pretty unequivocal statement that Craster gives up his sons to the Others and that they themselves then return as White Walkers, yet for years it was argued and is by some still argued in the very strongest terms that Craster’s wives are silly old women who don’t and can’t know what they’re talking about. Craster was simply tossing his sons out to die so that they wouldn’t grow up to be a threat (!) to him. The question has however been dramatically answered in the TV version, where Jon witnesses one of Craster’s sons being collected, so why shouldn’t the second part be true too?

And that’s where we come to changelings.

The taking and sometimes the exchange of human children is a very important part of Sidhe/Faerie lore. Craster “paying his tithe to Hell” is a very familiar theme and so too is their return. More striking still is the tale of Bael the Bard as told by Ygritte in CoK Jon 6:

The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael’s head, but never could take him, and the taste o’ failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o’ that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter’s night with harp in hand… singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark’s own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he’d made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’

Now as it happened winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished… and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.

…Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign of Bael or this maid. For most of a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o’ Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child’s cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast… They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle… Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is – you have Bael’s blood in you.

I’ve retold the story more or less in its entirety because while acknowledging at the outset that Ygritte identifies Bael as a Wildling and later King Beyond the Wall, this is an absolutely classic retelling of a changeling story – and so too are some of the parallels between the story of the Nights King on the one hand and Tam Lin and the Queen of Elfland on the other, Not exact parallels to be sure, but close enough, and so leading into another heresy.

If the Others are indeed an icy version of the Sidhe – and all of the evidence points very firmly to such a conclusion, then we also see the Stark connection, for GRRM took some pains to tell us the tale of Bael the Bard and the winter rose – the same rose seen growing from the Wall and telling us that Jon Snow has Sidhe blood in his veins.

[Ramsay Gimp]

If the Others are indeed an icy version of the Sidhe – and all of the evidence points very firmly to such a conclusion, then we also see the Stark connection, for GRRM took some pains to tell us the tale of Bael the Bard and the winter rose – the same rose seen growing from the Wall and telling us that Jon Snow has Sidhe blood in his veins.

As Tyrion says in AGOT, Jon has more of the "North" in him than his siblings. It's hard for me to think of Sansa or Arya as part "Other", but I could see it easily for Jon.

But I have some questions that stem from the premise you lay out:

1. If this is true and the Starks are in a sense "kin" to the Others, could this be why the Starks were given the title "Kings of Winter" in the first place? After the Long Night, perhaps the Others only retreated on the condition that their own kind, in human form (changelings) ruled over the humans in their vicinity. "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." But so far we haven't seen much evidence of Other-ness, physically, in the Starks. Warging, green seeing, etc. are all first-men/COTF related.

2. For Jon to assume his heritage as King of Winter/the changeling Representative of the Others, would his Targaryen parentage have to be rendered irrelevant? What would the point of making him the lost son of Rhaegar, the Last Dragon, be if his destiny is solely tied with Ice?

[Black Crow]

The short answer to the first question is yes. Some of us do think that the Stark in Winterfell business is a curse, laid upon the family as part of whatever deal was worked out - and its also where Bael/Tam Lin comes in, ensuring that there is a Stark in Winterfell.

This feeds in to your second question. There is an assumption that if R+L=J is true, then J is Jon Targaryen rightful king of Westeros, but I think myself that this is a blinder and that what's important is that not that Jon's father is (or may be) Rhaegar Targaryen, but that his mother is Lyanna Stark and through her he will be the King of Winter come again.

[evita mgfs]

Professor Crow’s updated dissertation on the Others part the second.

According to Old Nan, the Others “were cold things, dead things, that hated iron and fire and the touch of the sun, and every creature with hot blood in its veins. They swept over holdfasts and cities and kingdoms, felled heroes and armies by the score, riding their pale dead horses and leading hosts of the slain. All the swords of men could not stay their advance, and even maidens and suckling babes found no pity in them. They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children.”

The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael’s head, but never could take him, and the taste o’ failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o’ that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter’s night with harp in hand… singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark’s own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he’d made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’

Now as it happened winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished… and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.

…Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign of Bael or this maid. For most of a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o’ Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child’s cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast… They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle… Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is – you have Bael’s blood in you.

snip

If the Others are indeed an icy version of the Sidhe – and all of the evidence points very firmly to such a conclusion, then we also see the Stark connection, for GRRM took some pains to tell us the tale of Bael the Bard and the winter rose – the same rose seen growing from the Wall and telling us that Jon Snow has Sidhe blood in his veins.

The story of Bael mirrors what happens with Mance Rayder, who steels the Fake-Arya Stark through Theon.

I know of more possible baby changelings, or possible ones as well.

Neat analogy.

[alienarea]

Apologies for stating again that there isn't any proof that Jon Snow's parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Maybe this is a red herring to blind as seeing the obvious?

[evita mgfs]

You know I am into Greek mythology, and I made a connection that Arya calls her own self the NIGHT WOLF., for her purpose is dark, like the night in which a wolf hunts? Now that she is with the FM, her job has been to care for the dead, and even personally escort, symbolically, the souls of the dead to their Shadowlands, Nightlands, the roots of trees, depending on the souls' deities of worship.

Hades was the god of wealth - and the dead. Much like the FM. Arya may represent Hermes, whose job was to escort the shades of the dead to Hades Halls, where they meet with Charon, personified as a skeleton and skull face with a hooded cape and such - the grim reaper, if you will. He takes the souls across the River Styx, a powerful force as is the poisonous waters in the House of Black and White.

How am I doing with this? Any sense? :dunno:

[Ramsay Gimp]

This feeds in to your second question. There is an assumption that if R+L=J is true, then J is Jon Targaryen rightful king of Westeros, but I think myself that this is a blinder and that what's important is that not that Jon's father is (or may be) Rhaegar Targaryen, but that his mother is Lyanna Stark and through her he will be the King of Winter come again.

So basically it would be irrelevant that he is part Targ? I don't know how well that would work, story-wise. I agree that his destiny has nothing to do with the Iron Throne or old Valyria, probably not even Dragon-riding, but his father must have some importance to his narrative arc, or else what's the point? Why not just make him Ned's actual bastard (obviously I'm assuming that R+L=J here)

[Black Crow]

Its not necessarily irrelevant and may well turn out to be important, but just not in the way people expect, ie; rightfull king of Westeros.

There is a feeling that the female line may be more important than the male, eg: that Bloodraven is Bryn Blackwood rather than Bryndon Rivers (Targaryen), but I think there's a very strong element of GRRM deliberately misleading readers with the Targaryen connection, albeit it is still a polpular theory but not canon.

[Black Crow]

You know I am into Greek mythology, and I made a connection that Arya calls her own self the NIGHT WOLF., for her purpose is dark, like the night in which a wolf hunts? Now that she is with the FM, her job has been to care for the dead, and even personally escort, symbolically, the souls of the dead to their Shadowlands, Nightlands, the roots of trees, depending on the souls' deities of worship.

Hades was the god of wealth - and the dead. Much like the FM. Arya may represent Hermes, whose job was to escort the shades of the dead to Hades Halls, where they meet with Charon, personified as a skeleton and skull face with a hooded cape and such - the grim reaper, if you will. He takes the souls across the River Styx, a powerful force as is the poisonous waters in the House of Black and White.

How am I doing with this? Any sense? :dunno:

Makes sense, I wouldn't necessarily model Arya too closely on Hermes, but it certainly sounds like one of the things swimming around in GRRM's mind as he created her.

[Black Crow]

Apologies for stating again that there isn't any proof that Jon Snow's parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Maybe this is a red herring to blind as seeing the obvious?

I'm sure its a red herring, but as suggested above I think the real red herring is not that Jon's father will turn out to be Rhaegar Targaryen, but that his mother is Lyanna Stark, hence Bael's blue rose growing from the Wall.

[lysmonger]

I think its highly implied that Bloodraven is the three eyed crow. There is too much physical and things that the three eyed crow said that implies he is Bloodraven.

George specificially let out details of Bloodraven in SSM and in Dunk and Egg to imply he is the last greenser.

Whats more interesting is that the Children of the Forest never made any attempt to helping Bran get to the cave complex in the north. They used Coldhands/Nights king to get him there, but even still, he doesnt seem to be the right character to bring a few kids to the cave-granted hes not really living.

I ahve trouble seeing why Bran never made any attempt to talk about the dead rising as wights and the Others coming back to Bloodraven and the children of the forest.

[evita mgfs]

Now you are in trouble!

I just read about the Sidhe – aos sí- this is spot on! Great job there, to Professor Crow, and their Underworld- Tír na nÓg- Elysian fields, the place for the heroes of the war to reside in death as Shades. Yet when Odysseus visits Achilles, he conveys that even though he is king of the dead in his domain, he would rather be a slave on earth – Elysian fields was not Sidhe after life.

This all brings to mind Jon’s dream of his dead father and Rob feasting with the dead, and someone warns Jon not to join the feast of the dead, or something like that. Foreshadowing? Maybe Jon’s death will be as mystical as the Gaelic and Homeric myths?

In death, Jon will learn the truths, through his conduit Ghost and the nine weirwood trees outside the wall. Those trees remind me of Stonehenge.

The Banshees almost remind me of the different horns: the dragon horn Vicatarian is playing with, the Horn of Jeramum Sam may have, and the different signals of warning the NW use, three horn blasts indicating the arrival of the Others.

I suggest that the land of the Phaeakians, Skeria, home of King Alkinous and his wife Arete offering the finest hospitality in the western world -is more the magical place described in the wiki, although I understand perfectly the comparison. They have magical fruit trees, ships quick as thought, and are under Poseidon’s protection, that is, until they give Odysseus safe passage to Ithaka – then Poseidon builds a wall around their island and roots the returning ship to the sea floor.

The Greeks also believed in the Fields of Asphodel, a purgatory; the Isle of the Blessed, for those souls deemed worthy of rebirth; and of course Tartarus, where the dead are punished befitting their crimes.

As in Homer’s Odyssey and other myths, a few heroes visit the land of the dead to live and tell about it – “they escape death”, symbolically. Odysseus, Heracles, and a few more.

Maester Aemon is so very much like the Tiresias of Greek tragedy, both alive and dead.

It makes me wonder if someone at BR cave may be able to communicate with Aemon in death as Odysseus does – although Leaf is very much against Bran calling back the dead – well, for his purposes – to grieve further for his father’s loss. This leads me to believe that the Children do have this power, since Leaf admonishes against such a believable thing? Yes? Mormont mentioned the Children had the power to talk to the dead, which freaked out Dolorous Edd.

Do you suppose the underground ice caves where Ygritte and Jon made love may be a like habitat for the Others?

See what you inspire with your ideas? I am a heretic through and through, I think.

BTW, do you have any good books you can recommend? I must have books on this from when I visited Ireland and Scotland – I remember fairies being a big deal, and all the myths about fairies and dragons. I’d be interested in reading further, and since you live closer than I do, you may have top drawer recommended reads on the Sidhe and fairies.

Thanks.

[Belandra Waters]

Apologies for stating again that there isn't any proof that Jon Snow's parents are Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Maybe this is a red herring to blind as seeing the obvious?

Are there any plans for the heretics to take on the R+L=J theory?

[Efilnikufesin]

BTW, do you have any good books you can recommend? I must have books on this from when I visited Ireland and Scotland – I remember fairies being a big deal, and all the myths about fairies and dragons. I’d be interested in reading further, and since you live closer than I do, you may have top drawer recommended reads on the Sidhe and fairies.

Thanks.

Good website if you like, lot of good stuff in the reference section of my library, but this site is pretty good, easier to check in at the library when you know what you are searching for .

http://www.shee-eire...oddess/main.htm

[Summer is Ending]

The wights had been slow clumsy things but the Other was light as snow on the wind. It slid away from Paul’s axe, armour rippling, and its crystal sword twisted and spun and slipped through the iron rings of Paul’s mail, through leather and wool and bone and flesh. It came out his back with a hissssssssssss and Sam heard Paul say “Oh” as he lost the axe. Impaled, his blood smoking around the sword, the big man tried to reach his killer with his hands and almost had before he fell. The weight of him tore the strange pale sword from the Other’s grip…

I wonder why Sam and Grenn didn't take the Other's sword. It was torn out of his hands so unless it was mentally linked to him in someway it doesn't seem it would have melted. Grenn had the presence of mind to grab the dagger from the Other puddle and you'd think taking the very strange sword of your enemy would be a really good idea.

[evita mgfs]

Good website if you like, lot of good stuff in the reference section of my library, but this site is pretty good, easier to check in at the library when you know what you are searching for .

http://www.shee-eire...oddess/main.htm

Thank you very much! Love it! :wub:

[Black Crow]

Are there any plans for the heretics to take on the R+L=J theory?

There seems to be a perfectly respectable R+L=J thread on the main forum if the question was to be addressed directly, which isn't to say it might not come up here obliquely, as in questioning the real consequences of it being true.