Who is more cunning/ intelligent/ crafty.. Roose or Tywin?

[Petyr Patter]

I have to give the edge to Roose. Tywin has proven himself brutal, but he's also proven himself able to make severe blunders.

Falling for Robb's feint. Failing to realize what Cersei and Joffrey were. Hiring the Bloody Mummers. His failure to forsee Oberyn defending Tyrion for vengeance for his sister.

These aren't moral failings, these are just outright bad moves he made that blew up in his face.

I have a harder time recalling any blunders made by Roose of a similar nature. Perhaps, the fact he has Ramsay as an heir which rapidly decreased the loyalty of the other Northern houses, but Ramsay helped pave the way for Roose's ascension with his reign of terror in the North. So, who knows.

[gregorio]

I'd say Tywin is the more intelligent and competent man.

First - Tywin gained the most from the RW. Tywin, Roose, and Frey were the main conspirators, and the plan went off without a hitch, but they didn't benefit equally. With that short term victory, Frey, and likely Roose, doomed their houses in the medium to long term. There was so much risk for them in the plan. Tywin faced less risk. He was already at war with the North, and he'll never have to deal directly with the grudges of Northern and Riverland lords. The other two have to live with them! No one really puts any blame on him. Master stroke for him to convince Bolton and Frey to go along. But if the latter two go down hard in the next couple books, doesn't the decision to go in with Tywin and betray their King look incredibly foolish??

Second - Yes, Roose is very clever and thoughtful, but Tywin has operated in the hotseat of power for years and years. He is the longest lived hand of the king in recent history, correct? He survived both Aerys and Robert, and maintained his position as one of the most powerful men in the realm desptie his many enemies. Yes there were blunders along the way, and he ultimately went down. But Roose has been in the hotseat only since the RW. How many years has that been? And everything is already falling to pieces for him.

They are both intelligent men, but Roose has exercised his cleverness largely from the shadows, while Tywin has run a kingdom and realm for years. The measure of a man is how he performs once he's in the spotlight with all eyes on him. He can no longer mask his actions, the skeletons in his closet (Ramsay) are on full display, and his enemies attempt to undermine him at every turn. Unless events turn out very well for Roose in Winterfell, I don't think he is in the same league as Tywin.

[Darksnider05]

I'm still not convinced Roose isn't committing the most elaborate suicide ever.

[Sansa_Stark]

I'm still not convinced Roose isn't committing the most elaborate suicide ever.

I would actually say Wyman beats him out in terms of extravagance and style

[Ramsay Gimp]

If both situation were reversed, I think it would be about the same. Yet Roose hasnt had many situation to prove his skills, only 1 little smart betrayal... mosty organized by Tywin.

Only 1 little betrayal?? :shocked: He took Harrenhall without losing a single man, and gained a new tool in the process (Brave Companions). He may have orchestrated the destruction of Winterfell and capture of Theon, but even if he didn't he has managed to keep his House mostly blameless for that crime. He bled out his rivals's soldiers until there was almost none left, and didn't even get chewed out for it. He hatched a scheme that would have destroyed Stannis if not for some very bad luck (in the form of magical Mance Rayder and Alys Karstark).

Roose has got a lot more on his resume than just the Red Wedding (which he planned in detail with Lame Lothar - Tywin just gave the seal of approval and the rewards)

[Nymeria's Vendetta]

They are both clever & cunning but Tywin has been more successful. I think both will be killed by their sons though. That's not very smart.

[Ours if the Fury]

tywin... just a small step above...

[Queen Daenerys Stormborn]

Wait ... people are seriously saying the guy who boasted about murdering his king during the massacre of northern nobles is bright ??

All the north knows Roose killed Robb. Roose only has 5,000 loyal men and knew Bran and Rickon were not dead when he staged his little revolt. Roose is clever most of the time but the RW was not 'smart' on either his or Walder's part. I think Stannis is going to be the antagonist in the north for DoS so GrrM will need to clean away the Boltons. So ... Stannis is going to beat him.

Roose's stuff is on a level with Tywin hypothetically having the Martell children killed before going to live in the middle of Dorne with an army of only 5,000. Very stupid.

[Sansa_Stark]

Wait ... people are seriously saying the guy who boasted about murdering his king during the massacre of northern nobles is bright ??

All the north knows Roose killed Robb. Roose only has 5,000 loyal men and knew Bran and Rickon were not dead when he staged his little revolt. Roose is clever most of the time but the RW was not 'smart' on either his or Walder's part.

This stuff is on a level with Tywin having the Martell children killed and then going to live in the middle of Dorne with an army of only 5,000.

Did Roose really know neither Bran or Rickon was dead?

Did he have contact with Ramsay?

[Gneisenau]

His failure to forsee Oberyn defending Tyrion for vengeance for his sister.

Personally, I think it was a dumb decision on Oberyn's part to defend Tyrion. Why risk his life when he could done so much more to furthur his cause for revenge against the Lannisters ? I mean he probably poisioned Tywin, whos to say he couldn't continue and poison Cersei ?

[Ashur]

Well, i think we can't compare, because they came from different backgrounds. In my opinión, Roose had done better with his limited resources. Tywin has two male sons and tons of gold and influence, and somehow he failed to provide a solid succession, while Roose, with only a male son (a bastard!) and not many allies handled things well enough to win the North (tough his grip over it is not as strong as it should be) and provided a solid heir (it depends on Ramsay to prevail, but his father had set up things to favour him).

[Gneisenau]

Well, i think we can't compare, because they came from different backgrounds. In my opinión, Roose had done better with his limited resources. Tywin has two male sons and tons of gold and influence, and somehow he failed to provide a solid succession, while Roose, with only a male son (a bastard!) and not many allies handled things well enough to win the North (tough his grip over it is not as strong as it should be) and provided a solid heir (it depends on Ramsay to prevail, but his father had set up things to favour him).

Personally I don't really think having gold is that much of an advantage. If Tywin spends alot he could easily cause inflation ruining its value. But you are right, Tywin could have just named Tyrion as heir, and Tyrion would have basically sided with Lannisters to furthur their cause.

[Ramsay Gimp]

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[Shireen Shireen]

I'm still not convinced Roose isn't committing the most elaborate suicide ever.

I would actually say Wyman beats him out in terms of extravagance and style

So that's what's happening in the North! Suicide-off. Suddenly everything is clear.

ETA - no view on Tywin vs Roose until the final results are in. My money is on this:

I think both will be killed by their sons though. That's not very smart.

Plus there's fair chance both of them and their heirs will lose everything they worked for.

[Kasporio]

The only reason why Ty and Roosie were successful is their ruthlessness. They never cared for the traditions and rules of a feudal system (forgiveness, honor, be true to your words etc...)

So ok they are more clever than they're ennemies, but that dont make them geniuses.

They even seem noticeably hypocritical and blind. Roosie didnt killed his bastard freak after Dom death, because he's proud that Ramsay, while psychotic, is as depraved as him, making Ramsay, actually, the true heir to the bolton's disgusting legacy.

Most of their powers come from their social standing. Roose is the lord of one of the most powerful houses in the north, Tywin of the wealthiest.

But they are wicked SOB who only believe in brutality, as such, nobody like them, only fear them.

They seem unrealistic, too. Ty was stupid enough to believe Tyrion wont shoot him. Roose went to a ruined Winterfell with rebel lords who have a grudge against him, in a midst of a cold storm, with not enough food.

Barb Dustin believes its because Roose doesnt care and just want to have fun at playing mind games with the others guests.

But she was not right about Manderly, so we can assume shes wrong about Roose. He may be just stupid.

[Ramsay Gimp]

They even seem noticeably hypocritical and blind. Roosie didnt killed his bastard freak after Dom death, because he's proud that Ramsay, while psychotic, is as depraved as him, making Ramsay, actually, the true heir to the bolton's disgusting legacy.

Barb Dustin believes its because Roose doesnt care and just want to have fun at playing mind games with the others guests.

But she was not right about Manderly, so we can assume shes wrong about Roose. He may be just stupid.

-There's no evidence that's the way Roose feels about Ramsay and Domeric. You're just making shit up that contradicts what he says and does. Roose holds Ramsay in contempt and actually valued Domeric. He uses and even rewards Ramsay only because he is all that he has left, not out of any sense of pride. Roose isn't "blind" to what Ramsay is at all - he spies on him specifically because he doesn't trust him, and knows he will be the ruin of House Bolton. Unlike Tywin, however, that doesn't really bug him

-Lady Dustin knows Roose better than any other character. But everyone else calls Roose cunning as well. Should I list all the characters who note his intelligence and dangerousness? If we start discounting her opinion and saying "Roose might just be stupid," we might as well say "Arthur Dayne might have sucked at sword fighting" or "Aerys probably wasn't mad." The author isn't bullshitting us with these characterizations, he means what he says.

[Whitering]

My vote goes to Bolton, it's the equivalent of say the Tarly's taking over the Reach. Tywin has only operated in our view from a position of strength and got kind of lucky a couple of times. I don't know if Ramsay just sacked Winterfell on his own or not, but I find it just as likely that Roose left some general instructions before he left or delivered by raven later.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Hodor

[Sullen]

Tywin, despite letting himself be blinded by emotions.

I really think Roose and the Freys fucked themselves over with the Red Wedding.

[Dead Wolf]

Roose. Tywin was all about brutality