All these theories about Jon....

[Skoboe]

I know that many thousands love the R+L theory for Jon's parentage, among other theories.

But for Ned to take care of baby Jon, he would have had to know, right?

Now, I've asked this a few times in various threads, but it's usually on about page 12 of 20 so no one has answered yet...

If Jon Snow is so important, be it as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, or the Prince That Was Promised, or Azor Ahai...or any of the game defining roles that so many fans desperately want to see him become, then why did Ned so casually agree to let him take the black?

The honourable Mr Stark...we learned in the first chapter of the first book how seriously he took the crime of oath-breaking by lopping the head off a deserter.

If Ned knew Jon was important, he also knew that he'd eventually have to break his oath...very un-Ned like, don't you think?

Also; he was told by this deserter that the White Walkers were back in town...he was given a run down of troubles north of the wall by Benjen as well. He knew how under-manned the Nights Watch had become, knew that winter was coming, and knew that the Lord Commander of the Nights Watch was the father of a Lord that Ned had put a death warrant on.

Plus, he sent Jon to the wall with a Lannister escort, while he was heading 3,000 miles or so south to KL, knowing that Benjen would not be there to protect him.

If Jon is indeed so important to the Seven Kingdoms ultimate fate, and Ned knew, then why would he allow him to join the Nights Watch; one of the most dangerous places in Westeros? Knowing that from that point on he couldn't partake in world politics, provide an heir, or acknowledge his past.

I have no doubt that Jon is a Stark - the family resemblance is mentioned several times. But I feel Jon is simply the product of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne...Brandon was killed and Ashara answered a higher calling (much Melisandre and Thoros, but to a different God).

Ned took Jon on as his own to honour his brother, and kept his heritage a mystery to protect Ashara in whatever she was doing, and to hide from Robert that he was half-Dayne.

edit: spelling

[CassBlackfyre]

How would Ned know anything about Jon being related to TpTwP or AA?

[yolkboy]

I've never heard anything of Ned being interested or aware of prophesies.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

How would Ned know anything about Jon being related to TpTwP or AA?

This. The Targaryen dynasty was finished. Why would he reveal Jon's identity and endanger him?

Also, couldn't this just go in the R+L=J thread?

[Blutraven]

Because Ned knows fuck all about obscure ancient eastern prophecies.

[Muggle]

“He and Robb are close,” Ned said. “I had hoped …” “He cannot stay here,” Catelyn said, cutting him off. “He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.” It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell. The look Ned gave her was anguished. “You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name … you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned.” Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes. “They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.” “And none of them has ever been seen at court !” Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—”

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. “Another solution presents itself,” he said, his voice quiet. “Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black.” Ned looked shocked. “He asked to join the Night’s Watch?” Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now . Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time theboy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell. Maester Luwin said, “There is great honor in service on the Wall, my lord.” “And even a bastard may rise high in the Night’s Watch,” Ned reflected. Still, his voice was troubled. “Jon is so young. If he asked this when he was a man grown, that would be one thing, but a boy of fourteen …” “A hard sacrifice,” Maester Luwin agreed. “Yet these are hard times, my lord. His road is no crueler than yours or your lady’s.” Catelyn thought of the three children she must lose. It was not easy keeping silent then. Ned turned away from them to gaze out the window, his long face silent and thoughtful. Finally he sighed, and turned back. “Very well,” he said to Maester Luwin. “I suppose it is for the best. I will speak to Ben.” “When shall we tell Jon?” the maester asked. “When I must. Preparations must be made. It will be a fortnight before we are ready to depart. I would sooner let Jon enjoy these last few days. Summer will end soon enough, and childhood as well. When the time comes, I will tell him myself.”

Dont mind the bold txt it wont unbold for some reason i copied this from another thread.

But to me it doesnt look like Ned casually threw Jon into the Night Watch. Just look at how mad he gets. And he spent some time staring out the window in thought.

Ned doesn't believe White Walker invasion is real. Its presumed Benjen knows about Jons true parents. This was the most viable option to keep Jon safe. What Ned did is still considered treason. This is also the reason Ned kept Jon in Winterfel, to keep him safe. To keep the secret safe to be in control of the situation. Its a rare case to see a Lord raise a bastard in the same castle as his true born sons. If the truth got out not only would Jon's life be on the line so would Neds and House Stark as a whole. Ned taking in Jon is treason against Robert and the Realm.

[Skoboe]

So you're all saying that Ned didn't know? None of you think then that the people who entrusted Jon into his care even hinted at how important he was going to be?

[Dead Wolf]

One of the reasons I don't like R+L=J is because it encourages all these theories making Jon more important than he actually is.

[CassBlackfyre]

So you're all saying that Ned didn't know? None of you think then that the people who entrusted Jon into his care even hinted at how important he was going to be?

You're saying that Lyanna knew about the prophecies? i doubt that.

[Lyse Stark]

One of the reasons I don't like R+L=J is because it encourages all these theories making Jon more important than he actually is.

And I will be laughing my ass off at all you R+L=J haters when it is finally confirmed.

[Atroksia]

So you're all saying that Ned didn't know? None of you think then that the people who entrusted Jon into his care even hinted at how important he was going to be?

Basing on the R+L thesis - maybe Ned knew about all this, what it means Jon being half Targaryen, maybe AA or whoever promised by prophecies, even if he was the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, but he intentionally agreed to send Jon to the Night's Watch because if he (Jon) was bound to his oath he wouldn't mean any danger/threat to anyone who's claiming the Iron Throne to him-/herself (Dany, Stannis, Lannisters, whoever) - which would mean Jon would probably stay alive (when he's at the wall - more likely than if he's sitting on the Iron Throne or wants to sit there - and Ned didn't know about the Others/White Walkers or didn't take that threat seariously to think that Jon was in danger at the wall) which would mean that Ned could fulfill his promise to Lyanna, and we all know what an honor-bound guy Ned was.

[Dead Wolf]

And I will be laughing my ass off at all you R+L=J haters when it is finally confirmed.

Oh, I don't doubt R+L=J is the most likely answer to the mystery of Jon's parentage, but the idea that he is the answer to every single unexplained story, prophecy, or quote and that everyone must belittle every other character who may be important is completely ridiculous.

[Skoboe]

You're saying that Lyanna knew about the prophecies? i doubt that.

Well, something very odd happened at the Tower of Joy...the three best swordsmen in the Kingdom there to defend a princes mistress, seven (?) people with Ned Stark, two survivors but only one body.

Dead bodies are turning up everywhere in the current war...why would the bodies of three heroes of the Kings Guard not be retrieved at any stage?

Something was being covered up there, and many lies told about what happened.

[Jon of the Dead]

One of the reasons I don't like R+L=J is because it encourages all these theories making Jon more important generic than he actually is.

Fixed :cool4:

[Addam of Hull]

Oh, I don't doubt R+L=J is the most likely answer to the mystery of Jon's parentage, but the idea that he is the answer to every single unexplained story, prophecy, or quote and that everyone must belittle every other character who may be important is completely ridiculous.

Most theories I've seen wrt R+L relate to things that are legitimately tied to Rhaegar and the Targaryens as a whole. TPTWP comes from Aerys and Rhaella's line, AA may actually be TPTWP, and anyone with royal blood can make a claim. For what it's worth, I think at best, Jon is TPTWP and someone who could be king.

[Muggle]

I think Jon is TPTWP and AA and all of that. But he will never sit the Iron Throne. He is a man of the north. And north he will stay.

[CassBlackfyre]

Well, something very odd happened at the Tower of Joy...the three best swordsmen in the Kingdom there to defend a princes mistress, seven (?) people with Ned Stark, two survivors but only one body.

Dead bodies are turning up everywhere in the current war...why would the bodies of three heroes of the Kings Guard not be retrieved at any stage?

Something was being covered up there, and many lies told about what happened.

Lol so arthur dayne just handed dawn over then, and ran off to essos or something?

There was no recovery of bodies because Ned and Howland built cairns and buried them there.

They returned Lyanna to the crypts at winterfell after Ned promised to keep JonTarg safe from Robert.

I seriously doubt Ned or Lyanna knew anything about the prophecies that rhaegar was obsessed with.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Plus, he sent Jon to the wall with a Lannister escort, while he was heading 3,000 miles or so south to KL, knowing that Benjen would not be there to protect him.

No he did not. He went with Benjen and his escort and one Lannister who had two serving men with him. And how would Ned know that Benjen would be sent on and go missing during a ranging?

I have no doubt that Jon is a Stark - the family resemblance is mentioned several times. But I feel Jon is simply the product of Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne...Brandon was killed and Ashara answered a higher calling (much Melisandre and Thoros, but to a different God).

Brandon died well over a year before Jon was born, and the only time we can one hundred percent place him in the same building as Ashara was a year before that. So unless Ashara has the gestation cycle of an elephant, no.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't think that there are many theories, prophecies etc. One is the hero, Jon is the 3headed dragon. One hero many hypostasis.

How could Ned knew about some ancient prophecies?

And no. Jon is too young to be Brandon's son.

[Mad Monkey]

So you're all saying that Ned didn't know? None of you think then that the people who entrusted Jon into his care even hinted at how important he was going to be?

Why do you think that Ned did know? Taking R + L = J for granted, all Ned would need to want to take Jon with him to safety and conceal his heritage would be to know that Lyanna is his mother and Rhaegar is his father. He would feel obligated to care for his sister's son and he would not want Robert or the realm to find out that there is even a theoretical chance that another Targaryen claimant could threaten his throne. Ned does NOT need to know about Azor Ahai or the other prophecies to do anything that he did. There is no reason at all to believe that Ned would have wanted Jon to take the Throne if he knew that Jon had Targaryen blood; he is the one who overthrew the Targaryens in the first place -- why would he start another horrific war less than a generation later to undo that??

Maybe Ned did know. But as you point out, that just makes his behavior in the books more problematic and illogical, not less. It's kind of an Occam's Razor thing -- if Ned has complete knowledge of the prophecies and Jon's role in them, then his behavior throughout the entire series makes no sense any more. It simply makes more sense if he doesn't know about the prophecies.