All these theories about Jon....

[Skoboe]

Lol so arthur dayne just handed dawn over then, and ran off to essos or something?

There was no recovery of bodies because Ned and Howland built cairns and buried them there.

They returned Lyanna to the crypts at winterfell after Ned promised to keep JonTarg safe from Robert.

I seriously doubt Ned or Lyanna knew anything about the prophecies that rhaegar was obsessed with.

...and where is Dawn now? All we know is that Ned said he took it to Ashara at Starfall, and Ned said she jumped from the tower after that.

Why isn't Edric Dayne carrying it around? Why doesn't he even mention its existence?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

...and where is Dawn now? All we know is that Ned said he took it to Ashara at Starfall, and Ned said she jumped from the tower after that.

Why isn't Edric Dayne carrying it around? Why doesn't he even mention its existence?

GRRM said that it's at Starfall.

edit: Ned never said that Ashara jumped. That was Barristan

[CassBlackfyre]

...and where is Dawn now? All we know is that Ned said he took it to Ashara at Starfall, and Ned said she jumped from the tower after that.

Why isn't Edric Dayne carrying it around? Why doesn't he even mention its existence?

Because Edric isn't the sword of the morning, Dawn is still at starfall, GRRM said so himself

[Muggle]

...and where is Dawn now? All we know is that Ned said he took it to Ashara at Starfall, and Ned said she jumped from the tower after that.

Why isn't Edric Dayne carrying it around? Why doesn't he even mention its existence?

Dawn is only given to those worthy of the title Sword of the Morning. Its an office you have to earn, Not a sword your just inherited. There could be generations of Daynes before another person is worth of that title.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Because Edric isn't the sword of the morning, Dawn is still at starfall, GRRM said so himself

That too. Being the Lord of the House doesn't mean that the same person is the Sword of the Morning too.

[Skoboe]

Brandon died well over a year before Jon was born, and the only time we can one hundred percent place him in the same building as Ashara was a year before that. So unless Ashara has the gestation cycle of an elephant, no.

Lol...true, the times don't line up. But neither does the whole Wylla-as-the-wet-nurse thing. A four year gap between Jon and Edric...apparently she fed both, travelled several thousand miles from Starfall to Winterfell and back again...I'm a fan of boobs, but that a long way to send for one!

[The Wolves]

Oh, I don't doubt R+L=J is the most likely answer to the mystery of Jon's parentage, but the idea that he is the answer to every single unexplained story, prophecy, or quote and that everyone must belittle every other character who may be important is completely ridiculous.

As a Jon fan I agree it is ridiculous and annoying I hope he's dead

[CassBlackfyre]

Lol...true, the times don't line up. But neither does the whole Wylla-as-the-wet-nurse thing. A four year gap between Jon and Edric...apparently she fed both, travelled several thousand miles from Starfall to Winterfell and back again...I'm a fan of boobs, but that a long way to send for one!

no, she could have easily milk fed both because Jon would have been an infant at starfall...then four years later feeds edric, theres nothing about Wylla being at winterfell

thats if ashara/wylla is her mother which she isnt

[pobeb]

I feel like the heart of what you're saying is: If Jon is so important, and Ned fully understands this importance, why does he let Jon take the black?

Simple question. Here's a simple answer:

Taking the black puts you beyond the reach of the realm. The general consensus is that Ned's promise to Lyanna was to keep Jon safe, especially safe from Robert; not to "fufill his destiny", not to "raise an army behind him", and not to "seat him upon the iron throne". The reason Ned consents to Jon taking the black is because he believes, ironically, it's the safest place for him in all of Westeros.

p.s. If you want to discredit R+L = J, you have to explain why the truest of all Kingsguard members were guarding the Tower of Joy. This isn't the only piece of evidence in support of that theory, but it's definitely the strongest.

"The Kingsguard does not flee"

-Gerold Hightower, LC of the Kingsguard

[Skoboe]

GRRM said that it's at Starfall.

edit: Ned never said that Ashara jumped. That was Barristan

Didn't know GRRMs comments about Dawn - thanks for that :)

Selmy is still in love with Ashara...he blames the two elder Starks for her not loving him in return. He wasn't there when she jumped, was he? As far as I can tell the only witness was Ned; so the story had to come from Ned.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Lol...true, the times don't line up. But neither does the whole Wylla-as-the-wet-nurse thing. A four year gap between Jon and Edric...apparently she fed both, travelled several thousand miles from Starfall to Winterfell and back again...I'm a fan of boobs, but that a long way to send for one!

No evidence she ever went to Winterfell, tbh.

And as for the time lapse-- she'd either have to continue nursing for that whole time (not out of the question) or have another baby (also not out of the question)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Didn't know GRRMs comments about Dawn - thanks for that :)

Selmy is still in love with Ashara...he blames the two elder Starks for her not loving him in return. He wasn't there when she jumped, was he? As far as I can tell the only witness was Ned; so the story had to come from Ned.

First he doesn't blame a Stark. He said she looked to a Stark.

Where is it mentioned that Ned was with Ashara when she jumped?

[Skoboe]

I feel like the heart of what you're saying is: If Jon is so important, and Ned fully understands this importance, why does he let Jon take the black?

Simple question. Here's a simple answer:

Taking the black puts you beyond the reach of the realm. The general consensus is that Ned's promise to Lyanna was to keep Jon safe, especially safe from Robert; not to "fufill his destiny", not to "raise an army behind him", and not to "seat him upon the iron throne". The reason Ned consents to Jon taking the black is because he believes, ironically, it's the safest place for him in all of Westeros.

p.s. If you want to discredit R+L = J, you have to explain why the truest of all Kingsguard members were guarding the Tower of Joy. This isn't the only piece of evidence in support of that theory, but it's definitely the strongest.

Thank you!! Simple answers are the best, and every mystery so far has had a simple answer in hindsight.

Though - nothing in the text says that Ned's promise to Lyanna was about Jon, or even that Lyanna was Jon's mother (although it's heavily inferred).

And I'm not trying to discredit the R+L, it's the strongest one out there...I just like to keep an open mind and question the obvious.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Thank you!! Simple answers are the best, and every mystery so far has had a simple answer in hindsight.

Though - nothing in the text says that Ned's promise to Lyanna was about Jon, or even that Lyanna was Jon's mother (although it's heavily inferred).

And I'm not trying to discredit the R+L, it's the strongest one out there...I just like to keep an open mind and question the obvious.

Friendly advise: If you want to discuss Jon's parentage the best place is R+L=J v 66

[Ludd]

Certainly there are issues with the whole Jon story and it is useful to sort out the clear facts from the hearsay and speculation

1. Jon was born around the time of the sack of Kings Landing and must have been conceived about 2- 3 months AFTER the war started.

2. Jon is a few months younger than Robb meaning (it is not possible to disguise the ages of young babies and Jon was well settled at Winterfell while still needing a wet nurse (ie less than 2 years).

3. Jon looks like a Stark so must have one Stark parent at least. Because of his birthdate Brandon (and Rickard) are excluded. Benjen was up North when the war was waged (the Stark at Winterfell) so unless Jon's mother was a Northerner who travelled South this seems unlikely. This means either his mother is Lyanna OR his father is Ned.

4. Jon's parentage is a mystery that Ned must keep secret, especially from Robert but even from Catelyn. This makes it clear that the name of the mother is a secret. The ONLY names that Ned would need to keep a secret form Catelyn and Robert are Targs and Lyanna. The possibility of Jon's mother narrows to a) Lyanna, b) Elia or c) Rhaella or to d) some unknown Targ descendent of Egg or Aerion or Maekar or e) the mother could be anyone but the father is Aerys or Rhaegar. Now of these possibilities e) only works if the mother is Lyanna because there musty be a Stark parent d) is just poor writing and I hope not, b) is unlikely because Elia gave birth to a baby just a year previously and while this is possible it is unlikely because of her poor health.

Combining these together means that we have a limited choice for Jon's parents

A. Lyanna and Aerys or Rhaegar or perhaps some other person that Robert would hate (Arthur Dayne???),

B) Ned plus some important Targ female which is ONLY Rhaella

C) Ned plus someone he loves (like Ashara) but the person he fears is CATELYN not Robert

[MtnLion]

First he doesn't blame a Stark. He said she turned looked to a Stark.

Where is it mentioned that Ned was with Ashara when she jumped?

Sorry, I am anal about that particular line because it has a legalistic overtone.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Sorry, I am anal about that particular line because it has a legalistic overtone.

My mistake, I will change it. But what is a legalistic overtone?

[MtnLion]

My mistake, I will change it. But what is a legalistic overtone?

Looking for justice is one interpretation. ETA: THe line says only "Stark" as in House Stark. How Barristan could provide justice is a clue to what may have happened.

[Lord Ravenstark]

"R+L=J haters". First, I don't hate it. People who believe hate who don't believe in this theory.

I wouldn't be surprised if Martin one simple write anywhere saying "you're right, he is Lyanna and Rhaegar child" just in response to the massive amount of messages and things like that. People want to believe Jon is the only protagonist cause they want a common fantasy with a happy end, even blindfolding themselves to Jon's mistakes.

[spelling]

[Atropis the Elf]

So you're all saying that Ned didn't know? None of you think then that the people who entrusted Jon into his care even hinted at how important he was going to be?

Why future reference? Who knew what back then? Only one thing was for real: if Jon was acknowledged as a Targ it meant his death. Nothing to do with TPtwP, AA, you name it.