[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

[The Dragon Demands]

Yep, Verimthrax is definitely the influence for those dragon names.

How are we to reconcile the dragon names provided in the Dance with Dragons with the names that Viserys III gives to Doreah in Season 1 of the TV series? One of the names he gave was outright "Vermithrax". My guess would be that the easiest explanation/retcon is that these were the names of Valyrian dragons in ancient times before the Doom.

The names he gave were (spelling based on subtitles):

• Vermithrax
• Ghiscar
• Valryon
• Essovius
• Archonei

Or that Viserys III just doesn't know anything about anything - this is a man who wears a giant Targaryen sigil on his chest which displays it as having FOUR legs in addition to two wings (for a total of six limbs).

[The Sleeper]

Where did you get the idea that being twenty foot long compares to a twenty year old dragon? I'm very curious now :)

Sometimes I write so fast, I don't pay attention to what I write. I forgot part of the sentence. If Drogon is twenty feet long at three years old, then Syrax could be huge and powerful without being too old, say for instance twenty, nor have a previous rider. It goes to indicate that there weren't that many dragons between the conquest and tPatQ and most in the story are relatively young.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Sometimes I write so fast, I don't pay attention to what I write. I forgot part of the sentence. If Drogon is twenty feet long at three years old, then Syrax could be huge and powerful without being too old, say for instance twenty, nor have a previous rider. It goes to indicate that there weren't that many dragons between the conquest and tPatQ and most in the story are relatively young.

Ah alright, that makes more sense :) I'll try and work out the dragons and their sizes as soon as I can though ;)

[TheMysteriousOne]

How are we to reconcile the dragon names provided in the Dance with Dragons with the names that Viserys III gives to Doreah in Season 1 of the TV series? One of the names he gave was outright "Vermithrax". My guess would be that the easiest explanation/retcon is that these were the names of Valyrian dragons in ancient times before the Doom.

The names he gave were (spelling based on subtitles):

• Vermithrax
• Ghiscar
• Valryon
• Essovius
• Archonei

Or that Viserys III just doesn't know anything about anything - this is a man who wears a giant Targaryen sigil on his chest which displays it as having FOUR legs in addition to two wings (for a total of six limbs).

The show and the books are two separate entities.

[The Dragon Demands]

From what I've gleaned, "dragon size" isn't that dependent on "overall length" -- recall that they're mostly neck, tail, and wings.

Dragon sizes are given in terms of how big the body core is: i.e. its core needs to be a bit bigger than a horse to carry the weight of a rider. Vhagar was about five times the size of such a fledgling dragon during the Dance, and she was slightly smaller than Balerion (during the Conquest) at that point.

[The Sleeper]

From what I've gleaned, "dragon size" isn't that dependent on "overall length" -- recall that they're mostly neck, tail, and wings.

Dragon sizes are given in terms of how big the body core is: i.e. its core needs to be a bit bigger than a horse to carry the weight of a rider. Vhagar was about five times the size of such a fledgling dragon during the Dance, and she was slightly smaller than Balerion (during the Conquest) at that point.

From the way they are describing the skulls, Balerion was the size of Godzilla. So, at one fifth the size, Arrax would still be a very large animal.

[Emilydayne]

Prince Deamon is by far the most interesting character in this story! Now fast forward....So Bloodraven has Dark Sister. His lover is Shiera Seastar another Great Basterd with legendary beauty. They both were considered (by many) to be sorcerers and practice the dark arts. Shiera's mother was said to skills in the dark arts also. And we know that her mother descended from an ancient line of Valyrian nobility. Shiera ends up in Dorne after the rebellion..... Fast forward.... Starfall is the seat of house Dayne. Many Daynes are described as having the Targ looks (skin, features, hair and eyes). Now consider Dark Star (Gerold Danye)- he has the silver hair with a streak of black and the purple eyes. Arianne Martell says that he must be the most beautiful man is Dorne and that their children would be has beautiful as dragonlords. He is also rumored to practice the dark arts and is known as an exceptional swordsmen. In the Dunk and Egg tale, The Sworn Sword, it is said that Ulrick Dayne (a past Sword of the Morning) was considered a comparable swordsman to Daemon Blackfyre and Aemon the Dragonknight. And of course Arthur Dayne is a legend. Basically, the conclusion I come to is that Dark Star is a descendant Shiera Seastar. Possibly Bloodraven (it's a long shot) too. So far Dark Star is the only Dayne of High Hermitage that we've met. So maybe she only ties in with the Daynes of High Hermitage. Either way I think that the Daynes have some dragonblood and there's a chance that Dark Star could be a dragonrider. Am I just imagining all of this?! Does anyone know where Dark Sister is now?

[J. Stargaryen]

“Then up spoke the queen’s eldest son, Jacaerys. “We should bear those messages,” he said. “Dragons will win the lords over quicker than ravens.” His brother Lucerys agreed, insisting that he and Jace were men, or near enough to make no matter. “Our uncle calls us Strongs, and claims that we are bastards, but when the lords see us on dragonback they will know that for a lie. Only Targaryens ride dragons.” Even young Joffrey chimed in, offering to mount his own dragon Tyraxes and join his brothers.
Princess Rhaenyra forbade that; Joff was but twelve. But Jacaerys was fifteen, Lucerys fourteen; strong and strapping lads, skilled in arms, who had long served as squires. “If you go, you go as messengers, not as knights,” she told them. “You must take no part in any fighting.”

:cool4: :cool4:

[Lord_of_Japes]

Not sure if this was already answered, didn't look through every page of this topic, but....What does everyone think about the Rhaenys, the queen who never was? Why was she even considered to be in line for queen when Baelon, the son of the Old KIng, was the clear heir? The wiki is mentioning that these two weren't even siblings. I guess the family tree wasn't updated yet, it just leaves me wondering where Rhaenys specifcally falls in the tree.

[The Dragon Demands]

Not sure if this was already answered, didn't look through every page of this topic, but....What does everyone think about the Rhaenys, the queen who never was? Why was she even considered to be in line for queen when Baelon, the son of the Old KIng, was the clear heir? The wiki is mentioning that these two weren't even siblings. I guess the family tree wasn't updated yet, it just leaves me wondering where Rhaenys specifcally falls in the tree.

They had a Great Council in 101 AL but she lost.

[Annara Snow]

Not sure if this was already answered, didn't look through every page of this topic, but....What does everyone think about the Rhaenys, the queen who never was? Why was she even considered to be in line for queen when Baelon, the son of the Old KIng, was the clear heir? The wiki is mentioning that these two weren't even siblings. I guess the family tree wasn't updated yet, it just leaves me wondering where Rhaenys specifcally falls in the tree.

We don't know who Baelon was, except that he was a Targaryen and that the Old King named him his heir over Rhaenys. And i don't believe that he was a clear heir over her, or else there would've been no need for the Old King to name him his heir. Baelon died, so the Great Countil met and named Viserys the heir over Rhaenys and her children, Laenor and Laena.

What we do know about Rhaenys is that her mother was Jocelyn Baratheon and her father prince Aemon Targaryen. Since she was a possible heir, she must have been from an older branch than Viserys, and probably Baelon, too (or she was simply older than him). Viserys was the Old King's grandson, but I don't think we know who his father was? Since he and Rhaenys seem to be of a similar age (Rhaenys was 6 years older than Daemon), I'm guessing that Aemon was an elder son of the Old King who died prematurely, and Viserys' father was a younger son. Maybe Baelon was his father, or Baelon was another younger son, or another grandson.

[The Dragon Demands]

1. We hear a lot more about the Crownlands in this. We know that the Velaryons and Celtigars were Valyrian followers of the Targaryens - what about the other "Houses of the Narrow Sea" such as Bar Emmon or Massey? Were they also Valyrians?

Will the worldbook give more information about the "wider world"? Specifically what I mean is that we know a lot about the history of Westeros but comparatively little about what the Free Cities have been up to in the four hundred years since the Doom. This is the first we've heard of this "Kingdom of the Three Daughters" (Lys, Myr, Tyrosh), which I thought was very intriguing. Was this a unified state or more of an alliance pact (like NATO)?

Why the heck would Lys and Myr agree to be part of the same alliance? I always assumed that the deep rivalry between Lys and Myr ran all the way back to the Bleeding Years....though at the time both were conquered by Volantis. Instead, did the feud actually begin only 170 years ago, when the Triarchy fell apart at the end of the Dance?

It says the Battle of the Gullet was one of the biggest naval battles ever: but the Triarchy brought 90 ships and lost two thirds of that. Stannis brought something like 200 ships to the Battle of the Blackwater. Does this mean Blackwater was an even larger naval battle? Or would a historian discount that because it was more of a coastal/amphibious action, while the Gullet was fought on the high seas?

Were the Iron Islands under Dalton up to their usual antics whenever the mainland is in chaos (like Dagon under Aenys I)?

Was Braavos on a specific "side"? Wasn't Rhaenyra angry at them for accepting a quarter of the royal treasury from the Greens? Or were they technically neutral as just "the bank"?

Was it unusual even by Targaryen standards for Rhaenyra to marry her own uncle?

How the heck did Dragonstone's local agricultural output sustain so many dragons by this point in time? Or the Dragonpit for that matter?

The Hightowers have historically pursued the "easy path" of capitulation and neutrality - submitting to Aegon the Conqueror during the Targaryen invasion, to the Andal invaders before that, and trying as much as possible to stay relatively neutral in the War of the Five Kings. Why did they suddenly become so proactive under Alicent? Simply because not every generation will behave the same way and this was just an exceptional one? Is Alicent's interference seen as a moral lesson by later Hightowers against getting involved in wider politics? If the Tyrells were down for the count, what side were the Florents on?

What did independent Dorne make of all of this? If the Greens went so far as to ally with some of the Free Cities against the Blacks, and if the Stormlands went for the Greens, wouldn't the Blacks then ally with the Stormlands' major enemy Dorne?

We've got dragons in almost every color now, from black to whitish to grey to brown, from red to yellow to blue....all except purple. Was there ever a purple dragon? (There also wasn't an indigo dragon, but that's not a "real" color).

I'm confused on this: does Milk of the Poppy actually give you withdrawal the way opiate-based drugs do? What were the undesired side-effects which would make Aegon II not want to take it again? We know Jaime wouldn't take it but he also said this was primarily because he was worried that Qyburn wouldn't keep his promise and cut off his whole arm if he was unconscious.

Why does the Green council think of Rhaenyra as a whore for her past affairs with Cole and Strong? Is it common knowledge that Aegon II stays with his paramour more than his wife and children?

The introduction to the story gives some more examples of how the "hours" system works - "hour of the wolf", "hour of the owl", "hour of the bat" etc. Is this figurative, or is that what they use in Westeros instead of the o'clock system?

Is the Cannibal the specific reason that there aren't more dragons? Because he kept destroying eggs? Is the Cannibal supposed to be outright "insane" by dragon standards, due to all of the inbreeding?

So did they bother to cremate Rhaenyra's severed left leg? (in light of the discussion in Season 3 over "what's left of Rhaenyra is buried there).

Why don't the 19 dragon skulls in the Red Keep correspond to the actually larger number of dragons? Tyrion does mention that the oldest is three *thousand* years old, so they might not all have been post-Conquest dragons. Fans have taken that "19" number for so long to refer to the total number of dragons the Targaryens ever had. Moreover, Tyrion in the first novel said that the smallest dragon skull belonged to Vhagar...but Vhagar outlived Meraxes and grew almost as large as Balerion was during the Conquest. Is Tyrion simply in error? Because he just *assumed* that? Otherwise he's smart enough to know that it was Syrax and not Vhagar who roasted Byron Swann.

The Dornish managed to kill Meraxes?! What's all this, then?! What was this, some sort of post-War of Conquest raid-in-force by Rhaenys? I thought the Targaryens gave up on conquering Dorne.

Just to make this clear, if you're making a video Q&A: even Aegon I or Maegor styled themselves as "King of the Andals, the First Men, *and* the Rhoynar", right? They continued to press Aegon I's original "claim" (which was groundless), even though it didn't exist in fact?

Did Glydayn understand that dragons can shift gender? Or did he just assume that the ones that laid eggs must therefore be the females, and refer to them as "she" accordingly?

It is difficult to get a feel for Aegon II or Rhaenyra because the short story includes conflicting information from variant sources. Okay, the part about Aegon II not wanting to be king was a fabrication, or that the Iron Throne would cut Rhaenyra (through her armor?!). Just who was Aegon II? What sort of guy was he? He seems to spend most of the Dance incapacitated. Otherwise he's firing Hands of the King or feeding people to his dragons, or getting crippled yet again....it's funny, have you ever seen that routine from the Peter Sellers "Pink Panther" movies in which Inspector Dreyfus keeps getting horrifically injured at every turn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKXDmPG4FiI -- And we get so many conflicting reports about Rhaenyra that it's hard to sort out what was propaganda.

Just what was the disposition of the factions when Rhaenyra died? That is, are the Westerlands truly a spent force after the Fishfeed? Are the Hightowers and the Reach similarly exhausted? Did the Stormlands engage in battles we just haven't heard about? All told, it seems the Blacks still have reserves in the North and the Vale they haven't called upon yet.

While "Andal tradition" is that a son inherits ahead of a daughter, and a daughter before an uncle, doesn't First Men inheritance law work the same way?

Where can I buy my Prince Daemon action figure and/or t-shirt? I can make shelf space by throwing out all of my old Oberyn Martell merchandise.

[Anath]

What Annara said. And as far as I remember, Viserys didn't press any claim in 92, only in 101, after Baelon's death. So, he was probably Baelon's heir but unlike Rhaenys' children, he could have no claim while Baelon was alive. To me, the fact that Rhaenys' children were able to press claims along with her is another proof that their line was senior to Viserys'.

Hmm, that puts another spin on the whole "The boys are Strongs!" whine. Really, it looks almost hysterical but in fact, there might be a very sound reason behind it. Laenor and Rhaenyra's marriage was a political one, probably meant to smooth things between Rhaenys and Viserys, uniting their line. By claiming that the boys were not Laenor's, the Greens not only place doubts about Rhaenyra's morals and worth but undermine the part of Rhaenys/Laenor's claim which had been strong enough to be considered twice in Rhaenyra's offspring. Why only the first boys? Why not all five?

It makes sense for them to promote the gay Laenor version. This way, they undermine Laenor's own claim that he passed to his children to strenghten the one they had from Rhaenyra. Before the book came out, I used to wonder whether Rhaenyra's heir would be her first son or her first son with Daemon because purity of blood, etc.

It turned out that purity of blood aside, Laenor had had an actual claim, unlike Daemon. No wonder the Greens wanted the boys to be Strongs, Waters, anything else but Velaryons.

[Emilydayne]

No denying that :) If Daemon really went to the Green Men or ran off with her or something, yeah that's definitely more thought provoking. The slashes on the weirwood are fascinating, to be sure.

I've been pondering Nettles and Deamon a lot! I totally agree, the slashes in the Weirwood are very curious, I had overlook that until now. There must be a reason to mention that. Plus with everything else...Nettles appearance, her blood sacrifices, God's Eye and the Isle of Faces. No way all that doesn't point to a connection with The Children of The Forest! I believe that Nettles is Leaf. So, thinking about Leaf... She is the only Child we know of that is still around and speaks the common tongue. She was born during the time of the dragon, is about 200yrs, and she walked the world of men for almost 200yrs. That means she was definitely exploring the world of men during The Dance. And The Children are wargs! So even if they couldn't skin change into a dragon it's still conceivable that they could become dragon riders. And take into account their magic and knowledge of blood sacrifice and the way Nettles won her dragon. To me she is Deamon's lover or they may just have been friends like a knight and his squire... I don't believe their is enough evidence to come to a solid conclusion on that. As far as weather or not she could be his daughter I really can't say because I don't know the specifics on that theory. Is it possible that Children could breed with men? Maybe she is the daughter of Deamon and Leaf... Although that not the tale I buy. Lastly, there is a connection between Deamon and Dark Sister and Bloodraven (the tree-eyed crow) and Dark Sister.

[The Dragon Demands]

I believe that Nettles is Leaf.

You believe that Nettles lost a finger from each hand, grew claws, and gained cat-like slited eyes?

[Annara Snow]

1. We hear a lot more about the Crownlands in this. We know that the Velaryons and Celtigars were Valyrian followers of the Targaryens - what about the other "Houses of the Narrow Sea" such as Bar Emmon or Massey? Were they also Valyrians?

Will the worldbook give more information about the "wider world"? Specifically what I mean is that we know a lot about the history of Westeros but comparatively little about what the Free Cities have been up to in the four hundred years since the Doom. This is the first we've heard of this "Kingdom of the Three Daughters" (Lys, Myr, Tyrosh), which I thought was very intriguing. Was this a unified state or more of an alliance pact (like NATO)?

It wouldn't be called a "Kingdom" if it was just an alliance pact. The members of NATO are definitely separate states/countries, not any sort of federation or confederation. Perhaps you meant something akin to the European Union?

Was it unusual even by Targaryen standards for Rhaenyra to marry her own uncle?

Why would it be? They marry brother to sister, that's a closer blood relation than uncle/niece. I assume they just usually went with brother/sister because they were closer in age, and uncles or aunts were already married off by the time the younger generation was old enough to marry.

The only thing that could be too much even by their standards is parent and child, we haven't seen any such marriages among the Targs.

The Hightowers have historically pursued the "easy path" of capitulation and neutrality - submitting to Aegon the Conqueror during the Targaryen invasion, to the Andal invaders before that, and trying as much as possible to stay relatively neutral in the War of the Five Kings. Why did they suddenly become so proactive under Alicent? Simply because not every generation will behave the same way and this was just an exceptional one? Is Alicent's interference seen as a moral lesson by later Hightowers against getting involved in wider politics? If the Tyrells were down for the count, what side were the Florents on?

Because family members are not all the same, let alone different generations of the same house?

Why does the Green council think of Rhaenyra as a whore for her past affairs with Cole and Strong? Is it common knowledge that Aegon II stays with his paramour more than his wife and children?

Two reasons: 1) the sexist double standard, and 2) their own bias - they are trying to paint the Blacks in the worst light possible, so they bring up Rhaenyra's and Daemon's supposed affairs and 'reputation', and even her late husband's reputation. They aren't going to paint their own side in a bad light for propaganda purposes.

Did Glydayn understand that dragons can shift gender? Or did he just assume that the ones that laid eggs must therefore be the females, and refer to them as "she" accordingly?

Dragons can shift gender??

[The Dragon Demands]

Dragons are as mutable as flame, and can shift between male and female as the needs of the species require. If there are only three living dragons, some will shift from male to female to keep the species going. Much like certain real-life species of amphibians (think like the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park)

Well, that's my question: is "Kingdom of the Three Daughters" just a nickname, and it isn't an actual "kingdom" but an alliance?

Wait, yes, that's right: uncle to niece isn't nearly as close as brother to sister. Indeed, some of the formal historical rules against incest vary on that point -- i.e. Old Testament, wandering in the desert era laws say that while an aunt cannot marry a nephew, an uncle may marry a niece if it is the only way to perpetuate the family name. Logically, of course, uncle-niece marriages would rarely happen with the Targaryens - the brothers would usually get first pick. I think Rhaenyra's was the first generation which had more girls - what with her being the only surviving daughter of her Arryn mother. But why not remarry her to Daeron the Daring or something?

[Anath]

Wait, yes, that's right: uncle to niece isn't nearly as close as brother to sister. Indeed, some of the formal historical rules against incest vary on that point -- i.e. Old Testament, wandering in the desert era laws say that while an aunt cannot marry a nephew, an uncle may marry a niece if it is the only way to perpetuate the family name. Logically, of course, uncle-niece marriages would rarely happen with the Targaryens - the brothers would usually get first pick. I think Rhaenyra's was the first generation which had more girls - what with her being the only surviving daughter of her Arryn mother. But why not remarry her to Daeron the Daring or something?

Because Daeron was at most five when she got widowed?

I think Viserys was trying to strenghten her position by marrying her to his fearsome brother. At the time, his queen had probably already started pleading with him to change the succession so he might have felt that Daemon was Rhaenyra's best bet.

[Annara Snow]

Dragons are as mutable as flame, and can shift between male and female as the needs of the species require. If there are only three living dragons, some will shift from male to female to keep the species going. Much like certain real-life species of amphibians (think like the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park)

But is there textual confirmation of that, or is it just a theory?

Wait, yes, that's right: uncle to niece isn't nearly as close as brother to sister. Indeed, some of the formal historical rules against incest vary on that point -- i.e. Old Testament, wandering in the desert era laws say that while an aunt cannot marry a nephew, an uncle may marry a niece if it is the only way to perpetuate the family name. Logically, of course, uncle-niece marriages would rarely happen with the Targaryens - the brothers would usually get first pick. I think Rhaenyra's was the first generation which had more girls - what with her being the only surviving daughter of her Arryn mother. But why not remarry her to Daeron the Daring or something?

Daeron the Daring was just 15 when he died, and Rhaenyra had been married to Daemon for at least 10 years, since Aegon the Younger was about 9/10. I imagine that she wouldn't have been thrilled to be married to a child.

[The Dragon Demands]

But is there textual confirmation of that, or is it just a theory?

Septon Barth and Maester Aemon himself believe they shift gender, but within the story narrative it is debated but hasn't been confirmed yet - some say that it's just a legend and Barth was a heretic. Strongly implied this is actually the case.

I knew Daeron was young, I just didn't know if they'd simply make Rhaenyra wait to remarry or something (shrug).