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chrisdaw

[Spoilers] The Princess and the Queen, complete spoilers discussion

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But then the story fails depict the non-death of Rhaenyra's son Viserys. One can guess how they came to believe he died, but since that would be a major event for Gyldayn one would really think that he would have mention it. He spent a lot of time depicting Jace's death.

We only can deduce that Viserys is dead from the fact that Aegon the Younger is repeatedly called Rhaenyra's last surviving son. For all we know he may also have 'died' after the sea battle

We also don't get any hint on the whereabouts of Lady Rhaena Targaryen. She went to the Vale of Arryn with Joffrey Velaryon, but we don't really know if she came back with him or not (my guess is not, and there are good reasons for that theory, but if that's the case then it should have been mentioned in the story).

The becomes an even greater problem with the various battles and battle commanders that are mentioned. The story would have profited greatly from a more thorough editing on these parts. Say, for instance, by just mentioning that people fought there and which side won. Instead of not properly introducing characters and expecting people to know that Ruddy the Ruin is (or may be) Lord Roderick Dustin.

I'm seeing the theory; Rhaena of Pentos was given three eggs. The first time we see dragon eggs in the main series, it was in Pentos.

Aye, Roderick was introduced as Roddy the Ruin and the Winter Wolves, then as Roderick Dustin in a later paragraph, then as Roddy the Ruin again and it wasn't until Roderick and Winter Wolves were in the same sentence that I thought; same guy!

Good to see you're up to date, Lord Varys. I enjoyed reading your posts in the other TPQ thread before the release. :)

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Is it confirmed that Women are barred ?

So Dany has no claim?

They are not technically barred but in practice they are.

She didn't fight for equal primogeniture, she fought for her rights against a coup which was acknowledged as such by many people. Rhaenyra was the acknowledged heiress of Viserys, and fealty was sworn to her by the lords of Westeros. She fought to uphold that right and that oath and she won. Aegon's side lost and all the progeny of Viserys by Alicent Hightower died

And the issue is that if Rhaenyra won it would've meant pretty much that equal primogeniture is acceptable and a good way to go. But as we can see the exact opposite took place and women like her would never, ever, legally sit on Iron Throne again for about 180 years.

Aegon's side lost, I agree, but to say that Rhaenyra won seems like a far shot to me.

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Well, after reading the thing in full yesterday night - to the annoyance of my girlfriend and brother who wanted to sleep - I have to say that 'The Princess and the Queen' is indeed a poor contribution to the anthology as a story. Make no mistake, the Dance is interesting and makes for a good story, but not in this heavily edited fashion. There is no real focus on the two titular characters - especially not on Dowager Queen Alicent Hightower - nor are many of the characters or events mentioned and depicted in the story properly depicted.

Then there are quite a lot of mistakes (Prince Daeron is once called 'the youngest of King Aegon') and spelling errors ('Harrenhall', 'Aemon' - when Aemond is meant).

It's obvious that Archmaester Gyldayn has somewhat of a Targ fetish. He treats them as if the universe revolves around them and makes every Targaryen death a huge event. But then the story fails depict the non-death of Rhaenyra's son Viserys. One can guess how they came to believe he died, but since that would be a major event for Gyldayn one would really think that he would have mention it. He spent a lot of time depicting Jace's death.

We only can deduce that Viserys is dead from the fact that Aegon the Younger is repeatedly called Rhaenyra's last surviving son. For all we know he may also have 'died' after the sea battle

We also don't get any hint on the whereabouts of Lady Rhaena Targaryen. She went to the Vale of Arryn with Joffrey Velaryon, but we don't really know if she came back with him or not (my guess is not, and there are good reasons for that theory, but if that's the case then it should have been mentioned in the story).

The becomes an even greater problem with the various battles and battle commanders that are mentioned. The story would have profited greatly from a more thorough editing on these parts. Say, for instance, by just mentioning that people fought there and which side won. Instead of not properly introducing characters and expecting people to know that Ruddy the Ruin is (or may be) Lord Roderick Dustin.

I really think GRRM should consider to publish the full story of the Dance as soon as possible (i.e. after 'The World of Ice and Fire' is out).

A tidbit on genealogy:

It is is implicitly confirmed that Lord Corlys Velaryon and Princess Rhaenys Targaryen are the parents of Laenor and Laena Velaryon. When Aegon II offers Rhaenyra peace he intends to leave her Dragonstone and confirm her eldest son Jacaerys as heir to Dragonstone. He also offers to confirm Lucerys as heir to Driftmark, which essentially means that he has to be a descendant of Corlys. The fact that Laenor had a dragon also adds to that theory. I'm quite sure the Targaryens would not have given a dragon (egg) to a random Velaryon, nor would Viserys have married his daughter and heir to him if he had not been Rhaenys's son.

Thank you Lord Varys. But whic Viserys is Rhaenyra's son? Viserys II, father of the Dragonknight or someone else?

I'm seeing the theory; Rhaena of Pentos was given three eggs. The first time we see dragon eggs in the main series, it was in Pentos.

Aye, Roderick was introduced as Roddy the Ruin and the Winter Wolves, then as Roderick Dustin in a later paragraph, then as Roddy the Ruin again and it wasn't until Roderick and Winter Wolves were in the same sentence that I thought; same guy!

Good to see you're up to date, Lord Varys. I enjoyed reading your posts in the other TPQ thread before the release. :)

Hmm, could it be Illyrio's three eggs? Did Roddy the Ruin fight at Harrenhal? Any Stark mentioned?

They are not technically barred but in practice they are.

And the issue is that if Rhaenyra won it would've meant pretty much that equal primogeniture is acceptable and a good way to go. But as we can see the exact opposite took place and women like her would never, ever, legally sit on Iron Throne again for about 180 years.

Aegon's side lost, I agree, but to say that Rhaenyra won seems like a far shot to me.

Well, let's disagree on the meaning of Rhaenyra winning. What I meant by that is that Rhaenyra's right was recognized and that her line continued as the legitimate Targaryen line.One could argue that she was Aegon's heir with all these deaths but what about Jaehaera. She was never a ruling queen not because Rhaenyra fought for equal primogeniture but because she was married by the Targaryen king, Aegon III, to cement the ties

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Yes.

"We only can deduce that Viserys is dead from the fact that Aegon the Younger is repeatedly called Rhaenyra's last surviving son. For all we know he may also have 'died' after the sea battle"

How could he die?

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My second crackpot.



We have a Rickard Thorne in the King's Guard. If Rickard is a northern name then it could be that the Thorns were kicked out of the north by the Starks which is why Alliser Thorne hates Jon.


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"We only can deduce that Viserys is dead from the fact that Aegon the Younger is repeatedly called Rhaenyra's last surviving son. For all we know he may also have 'died' after the sea battle"

How could he die?

He doesn't. Rhaenyra and her allies thinks he is dead. But he must be alive somewhere.

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My second crackpot.

We have a Rickard Thorne in the King's Guard. If Rickard is a northern name then it could be that the Thorns were kicked out of the north by the Starks which is why Alliser Thorne hates Jon.

Alliser Thorne already a good reason to hate Jon. He was a Targ loyalist, forced to take the black after Robert's Rebellion. He probably hates Lanisters, Arryns and Baratheons just as much as he hates the Starks.

The irony is that if R+L=J is correct, Alliser Thorn hates the man who is actually his king (assuming he's still a Targ loyalist).

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On the second Viserys:



Viserys and Aegon the Younger are captured by the galleys of the Triarchy/Kingdom of theThree Daughters (a union of Tyrosh, Myr, and Lys - apparently Prince Daemon's adversaries during his campaigns at the Steptones). Aegon the Younger escapes on Stormcloud - easily one of my favorite scenes of the whole piece - but young Viserys can't since he has no dragon, only an egg. He tries to disguise himself as cabin boy, but is betrayed and made a captive. Apparently the admiral of the fleet takes Viserys as his captive.



Afterwards he is never mentioned again. My best guess is that Gardner/GRRM omitted a whole paragraph depicting Rhaenyra's reaction to the loss of another son. The best guess as to why people may think he died is that his ship must have been destroyed during the sea battle. Either by dragon fire or by conventional means. 21 ships escaped of the Triarchy survived the battle. Later 'the Triarchy tore itself to pieces'. If Viserys had been taken as a hostage to the Stepstones one would assume that Rhaenyra would have heard about that. Either someone from there would have tried to sell the boy back to her or to Aegon II. Her would be the much more likelier option after she has taken KL.



Another thing is the fact that Ser Addam Velaryon's death is not depicted. We read about Seamoke's death in detail, but that his rider died as well is only mentioned in passing in a later paragraph. Something really fucked things up in this story.



Gyldayn is also not supposed to make mistake in this story, by the way. The 'father mistake' from the excerpt has been corrected! Jaehaerys is now corrected called Viserys's grandfather.



And it would also not be all that likely that Gyldayn makes mistakes like that. He really is knowledgeable in all things Targ.



Where Gyldayn seems to travel into fable/legend/invention territory is in his depiction of Aegon's reaction to take the Iron Throne. That is not in Aegon's character the way he is depicted everywhere else in the story. Another thing may be him repeating the gossip that Rhaenyra had Ser Luthor murder her half-sister Helaena. It just doesn't make any sense that Rhaenyra would do this, especially since she let Alicent Hightower live.



His interpretation of 'the Iron Throne rejecting Rhaenyra' does also seem biased to me. Especially the depiction of Rhaenyra's first session on the Iron Throne - throughout the whole evening and all the night - seems nonsense to me. Of course her legs and hands would bleed. It's a very uncomfortable chair and she sits there for the first time, of course she is going to cut herself once or twice.



Thus I think we can deduce that Gyldayn is somewhat biased towards Aegon II or at least upholds 'Andal tradition'.


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I think one must take into account that an editor _not_ Glydayn has chopped up a longer work. Some of the things that may seem biased one way or the other should be taken with a grain of salt -- additional, complicating material has often been removed.

In fact, I'll take the specific example of the text noting that Rhaenyra took several cuts from the throne and that this seemed to prove she should not rule...

In the original text, that whole bit (including the judgment of Rhaenyra that it implies) is a direct quotation from one of the sources Gyldayn uses, Septon Eustace. I see the story itself cuts the fact that it's from Eustace, however.

For that matter, the account of Aegon's initial reaction is also from Eustace....

Look at the rest of the references to Eustace in TPatQ and you may draw some conclusions. :)

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On Daemon's possible survival:



I really don't get why he did what he did, or what the thing between him and Nettles was. Why did he not go with her? Why did he not return to Rhaenyra to take things into his own hands? He could have done that. Was he hurt by Rhaenyra by this whole thing (i.e. did he actually still love his wife and niece and consider this a betrayal against their 'open marriage' - I think we have reason enough to assume that both Rhaenyra and Daemon did have multiple lovers during their respective marriages). The way Gyldayn describes it Rhaenyra did not exactly want Netty's head because of her alleged affair with Daemon but because of her bastard heritage and her court's fear that she might betray just Hugh and Ulf did.



Why did Daemon continue his hunt for Aemond? And why did he go to Harrenhal of all places? Why make the whole thing a battle between the dragons and not some clever assassination thing on the scene?



His body is not found.



I'd not be surprised the slightest if we would meet Prince Daemon Targaryen again if the Green Men ever make an appearance in the main series. Gyldayn's mentioning of Ser Addam allegedly visiting may be a hint in that direction. I don't see why he would have gone there, but if Daemon jumped of Vhagar's back in time he could have made it to the God's Eye easily enough.



On the continuation of the Dance:



Ran already said that there was yet another dragon not mentioned in TPatQ. This makes it very likely that either Viserys's egg or one of Lady Rhaena's have hatched in the story. I can't see the Black cause continue - or at least not continue in the ferocity of the previous battles - if the Black party has neither dragons nor any dragonriders. Aegon II will be the King on the Iron Throne again, and that will give him credibility again whereas the Blacks won't have any pretenders nor dragons without Aegon the Younger and Viserys. And fighting for children would be very difficult from a propaganda point of view. But if a ferocious Viserys shows up with a dragon in an Arya-like fashion in the Vale of Arryn, or if one or two of Rhaena's eggs have hatched shortly after Joff left her in the Vale, things may start to look better for the Blacks again.



Borros Baratheon is going to die in 131 AC (according to the MUSH appendix). Thus I think we can assume that Jaehaera made it successfully to Storm's End. Borros most likely will take her back to her father and take an army of Storm Lords with him to the capital.



If the MUSH is correct in the Arryn section it appears as if the Maiden of the Vale is not going to survive either. Thus I'd assume that either the fighting is going to the Vale, or the Maiden and even more of her men are going to take the fight to Aegon II. If Viserys would show up with a dragon there Aegon may also be provoked to attack the Vale.


That could indeed be some sort of Targaryen children in the roles of Bran and Rickon. The youngest son and his beast play very crucial roles in casting down the false king (but the elder son inherits anyways - but the fact that Aegon III became king does not mean that Bran has to get Winterfell).



Rhaenyra's last desperate ravens from KL to the Vale and the North may also bear fruit. Reinforcements from White Harbor and Winterfell may also be on their way south when Rhaenyra departs on her final journey to Dragonstone.



The Cannibal and Silverwing may also get (new) riders.



I'm not sure if Maelor's journey to Oldtown ended well. Lord Ormund is dead, his young sons are still back in Oldtown, but I'd not surprised if his ship sunk or another tragedy befell him. He has to be dead when Aegon II dies, or else we would really have to assume that the Blacks completely won the war. If Maelor was still alive the war may have continued in his name.


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My second crackpot.

We have a Rickard Thorne in the King's Guard. If Rickard is a northern name then it could be that the Thorns were kicked out of the north by the Starks which is why Alliser Thorne hates Jon.

I wouldn't put to much stock in that. We've already got both a Balon Greyjoy and a Balon Swann, a Mors Umber and a Mors Martell. And if Rickard is a Northern name then House Horpe must surely have came the same way due to Rickard Horpe who tags along with Stannis.

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Ran, need to reread the whole thing as soon as possible. With the hard copy here since today this may be more fun than the read at the screen yesterday.



But anyway, Gyldayn could have chosen sources because he actually agrees with their interpretations, not so much because he uncritically cites their interpretations as fact (that would make him a very bad historian).



My issue with TPatQ as we have it now is more that it was poorly edited/condensed by Gardner/GRRM. But considering how good and interesting some portions still are I'm very sure that the whole thing would have made a very interesting read indeed!


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Rhaena surely could marry Viserys. If she survives. So could Baela, by the way. She survives her battle with Aegon II and is taken to a maester afterwards.



If the MUSH has not invented the Targaryen princess in the Corbray appendix, Rhaena may end up being the second wife of one Corwyn Corbray who is also going to become one of the Regents of Aegon III.


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In theory then, there was a time Rhaenyra was actually Queen Rhaenyra? I don't understand why she wasn't listed as a Queen before, to be honest...

The ending says Aegon II had all mention of her as a queen removed.

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In theory then, there was a time Rhaenyra was actually Queen Rhaenyra? I don't understand why she wasn't listed as a Queen before, to be honest...

I think it is a question of conflicting claims at the same time. Aegon II had the better PR.

  1. Countless times Rhaenyra is referred to as "The Whore" throughout the story, when really it is not her fault he was at first married to a gay man. She was very fond of her second husband that much we know, when as Lord Varys stated it was obviously an open marriage at least on Daemon's part, who (according to Criston Cole, and I am paraphrasing, could put Aegon the Unworthy to shame - no love lost between ol' Criston and Daemon). All the Targ man in the story had paramours. There were a lot of allegations about Rhaenyra, but we have only seen her loving Daemon.

She was depicted as demented. Really, she has just had a stillbirth. Not a miscarriage, but a full birth but no bouncing baby to show for all the pain and 8 months of expectation. Hormones flying all over, post-natal depression, her father dying, her half-brother declaring war on her, her children dying one by one, her husband - although very supportive - philandering continuously, all the betrayals, her getting totally isolated in King's Landing, the dragons dying, Daemon... I think it is obvious the archmaester could have cut her some slack.

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I know I think I said it before, but is it possible that Lady Rhaena is the wife of Viserys II and mother to Naerys, Aegon the Unworthy and the Dragonknight.

Could be. It was said in a Clash of Kings that three princes had been wed to Velaryon brides. Viserys would have wed before he became king, so a Velaryon bride would also be a possibility.

I'm not sure how much of the MUSH about the people living during the Dance is made up for the game, and how much of it is fact. It's like Lord Varys said, Rhaena or Baela could be the Targaryen princess marrying a Corbray. Ser Corwyn supposedly lived from 100 AL up to 135 AL. It would fit the timeline.

Viserys could also have married either one of his stepsisters.

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