Where do the Great Houses rank in wealth?

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

Y u mad tho?

[Lady Blackmont]

Why is everyone ranking the Stark's so low?

Lannister- Gold

Tyrell- Wine+Taxes+Food= Goldx2

Tully- Lots of taxes and incoming gold from food sales

Arryn- Fertile Land, Gulltown.

Martell- Exotic trade+Wine=Gold

Stark- Silver Mines and White Harbor, not to mention very few expenditures.

Baratheon- No ports, few towns, no mines that we know of.

Greyjoy- They have Iron. And... Iron.

Arguably, the Starks could be higher. The only outcome that we know of is purchasing food for White Harbor, and cities more than make up for that. Think about it, did Sweden have to import food? No. Lots of land seeded with grains and a small population supersedes the fierceness of winter.

[Khorkalba]

They're not.

Probably 2 houses recognize them in the North as a great houses and the Lannisters are inbreed monsters who are not the rightful heirs of the throne so them naming the Boltons a great house is not valid.

The Targaryens practiced inbreeding and claimed lands that didn't rightfully belong to them. If Great Houses named by the Lannisters don't count, then neither should the ones named by the Targaryens.

You just sound like an angry Stark fan who places far too much importance on legitimate succession rather than conquest.

[mmenolas]

Lannister/Tyrell

Slate had an interesting article discussing who was truly the richest family. Its acknowledged in the books the Lannisters are richer, but how close does GRRM look at things like economics and travel time? http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/04/17/goldbugs_in_westeros_house_tyrell_is_richer_than_house_lannister.html

I don't really agree with that article. Yes, if the Westerlands couldn't produce food and the Reach couldn't produce gold, the Reach would be in better shape. However, the Westerlands don't lack the ability to produce food. While they produce less surplus food than the Reach, they still produce sufficient quantities. In fact, the shelf-life/travel time issue actually hurts the Reach far more- Assuming the Westerlands can produce sufficient foodstuffs for themselves, and their gold is their chief export, that gold does not decay. On the flipside, the Tyrells may produce surplus food, which may be more necessary than gold, but it does perish over time, limiting it's economic value over long distances. Also, once we consider the size of Westeros (as big as South America), the time necessary for food exports to reach the majority of the continent is prohibitive. The gold can be spent anywhere, the food may not make it places fast enough.

[The Wolves]

The Targaryens practiced inbreeding and claimed lands that didn't rightfully belong to them. If Great Houses named by the Lannisters don't count, then neither should the ones named by the Targaryens.

You just sound like an angry Stark fan who places far too much importance on legitimate succession rather than conquest.

Conquest of what?

Neither the Boltons nor Lannisters have conquered the North.

And my post don't sound angry I was just pointing something out which is my opinion.

[mmenolas]

They're not.

Probably 2 houses recognize them in the North as a great houses and the Lannisters are inbreed monsters who are not the rightful heirs of the throne so them naming the Boltons a great house is not valid.

It doesn't matter how inbred the "Baratheon" children are, or how much you don't like the Boltons- they are currently the great house in the North.

Actually, we should probably be ranking the relative wealth of the regions rather than houses- things like Baelish in the Riverlands and Bolton in the north make it difficult to go house-by-house, especially when most of the points listed reflect regional wealth.

Also, depending on taxation policies, I think the Starks (or Boltons, or whatever house the North belongs to) may need to be higher up. Their vassals controlling one of the few cities on the continent should be profitable (assuming efficient taxation, which is probably a big assumption.... Now I'm already rethinking my suggestion about this...)

[Lady Blackmont]

^ :agree:

Or just rank them based on 297 AC, like I did.

[Khorkalba]

Conquest of what?

Neither the Boltons nor Lannisters have conquered the North.

conquer

[kong-ker]

verb (used with object)

1.to acquire by force of arms; win in war:

2.to overcome by force; subdue:

Robb Stark lost the war. He and his men were killed by force of arms. Just because this happened at a wedding instead of on a battlefield doesn't make it any less of a conquest. The Starks have officially lost their status as a Great House and as Wardens of the North.

[Free Northman Reborn]

How rich was medieval Russia compared to its neighbouring European kingdoms of the time?

[Winter's Cold]

Lannister - Lannisport + Gold Mines

Tyrell - Oldtown + Fertile Lands + Arbor wine

Stark - White Harbor + Silver mines + Large amount of arable land

Riverlands - Center of Trade + Fertile Lands

Arryn - Gulltown + Fertile Area

Martell - Plankytown + Exotic items

Baratheon - Weeping town

Greyjoy - Iron

[Ultima II]

Wealthiest, down to least-wealthy

1. Lannister
   
2. Tyrell
   
3. Tully
   
4. Baratheon
   
5. Arryn
   
6. Martell
   
7. Stark
   
8. Greyjoy
   

[Ultima II]

conquer

[kong-ker]

verb (used with object)

1.to acquire by force of arms; win in war:

2.to overcome by force; subdue:

Robb Stark lost the war. He and his men were killed by force of arms. Just because this happened at a wedding instead of on a battlefield doesn't make it any less of a conquest. The Starks have officially lost their status as a Great House and as Wardens of the North.

Yes, this is true.

If we were to replace the Starks with the Boltons, the list would change to this:

1. Lannister
2. Tyrell
3. Tully
4. Baratheon
5. Arryn
6. Martell
7. Greyjoy
8. Bolton - they simply have not been at the "top" long enough to take advantage. And with the north under ice, it will take time before they can collect taxes from the vassals.

[Lady Blackmont]

Wealthiest, down to least-wealthy

• Lannister
• Tyrell
• Tully
• Baratheon
• Arryn
• Martell
• Stark
• Greyjoy

The Starks have everything the Baratheons have, just on a much larger scale.

The Stormlands have wood, and that's all we really know of. A relatively small population, no cities, no precious metal deposits to my knowledge.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

The Starks have everything the Baratheons have, just on a much larger scale.

The Stormlands have wood, and that's all we really know of. A relatively small population, no cities, no precious metal deposits to my knowledge.

The Baratheons dont suffer as much during Winter, they are not as reliant on importing as much food during that same period.

Neither are particularly rich, I'm not sure which has the richest Houses (Manderly aside).

[Lady Blackmont]

How rich was medieval Russia compared to its neighbouring European kingdoms of the time?

Well, Kievan Rus', 880-1240 if I remember correctly, was a loose confederation with lots of national resources but too weak of a government to collect on them.

The Grand Duchy of Moscow is a better contemporary comparison, and, while quite a wealthy state, it did not have the unity of The North. The Tsardom of Russia, has a similar unity to the SK, funded all of its wars with timber and hides, and managed to stay on top financially.

Vast national resources give a country a huge advantage, and I expect Winterfell had vast stores of wealth. How much of this was liquid is up for debate.

I personally prefer to compare the North to Sweden myself, there are more similarities.

[Municipal Engines]

The question asks about Great Houses, rather than all houses. I think there are a significant number of lesser houses that are richer than the great ones; Hightower, Manderly, Redwyne and Baelish are the first that spring to mind.

By the way, is it mentioned that noble houses pay tax to their liege lords, or is it just the smallfolk and the nobles provide military service? Even still, there's no telling exactly how much they tax their vassals by if they do.

1. House Lannister - Gold, silver and trade through Lannisport. Made all the richer by Tywin's guiding the Iron Throne to indebtedness to his house, and his other policies as Hand that were geared mostly towards beefing up trade for the Westerlands. I think they're explicitly mentioned to be the richest house.

2. House Tyrell - Being the breadbasket of Westeros they have significant wealth, from both sale of food and taxes on a number of houses that are very wealthy too. Again, I think the book explicitly mentions their wealth as being eclipsed only by the Lannisters.

3. House Martell - This is an unpopular placing but hear me out. The Martells have direct control over Planky Town and Sunspear, both port settlements seated in the part of Dorne where the Summer Sea meets the Narrow Sea. This is a perfect situation for trade to flourish. They also have a market of wine, fruits and spices that seem popular in the Seven Kingdoms and beyond. Not to mention the opulence of Sunspear and the Water Gardens, and the special privileges that were negotiated during the marriage into the Seven Kingdoms.

4. House Tully - Not sure the exact extent of their demesne, but the Riverlands are the crossroads for the Seven Kingdoms, with plenty of fertile land and lots of towns to act as hubs of trade and lots of rivers to act as arteries for said trade.

At this point my estimates are a lot murkier and will probably be prone to changes.

5. House Baratheon of Storm's End - This is sans Dragonstone, King's Landing and the Crownlands. I'm putting these guys ahead of the Arryns purely for the land around Storm's End. The land would be the minimum of their demesne, and is certainly more fertile and productive than the minimum demesne of the Arryns. They also have numerous towns, the Rainwood and a portion of the Kingswood (to provide fur, timber and amber) and whatever wealth they can extract from the northern Red Mountains. Not to mention the geographic position of the Stormlands is good for fostering trade, trade that with the lack of cities is likely more evenly spread out.

6. House Stark - The wealth of the North is wool, hide and timber, and Stark lands lie in a position where these items are likely to be abundant. Not to mention the sheer size of the north and the distance between major castles and settlements likely makes their demesne very large compared to other houses. The location of Winterfell along the Kingsroad and at a hot-spring makes the castle and its town a hub, though less for trade and more for smallfolk that can be taxed. They have the whole vastness of the North to contribute to tax, but few places actually offer anything worthwhile. Manderly is most likely richer, as they control a good portion of the White Knife, a huge swathe of land including coast, silver mines and White Harbour itself. I don't know how much House Stark's comparative simplicity and plainness to the rest of the realm is due to thrift or poverty, though I'm leaning more to thrift due to Ned's ideals and Northern culture in general. Winterfell itself must cost a fortune for the upkeep, however, though when there's a tower that's been derelict for 140 years, one can question the commitment to upkeep.

7. House Arryn - I'm placing them this low mostly for the fact that their demesne seems, at the minimum, to consist only of the Eyrie and the Gates of the Moon, which are located on top of and at the foot of the Giant's Lance. There seems to be no mining operation going on in the mountain and though I do not know how much fertile land they have in the surroundings of the mountain, the upkeep of the five castles on and at the foot of the Lance must be rather costly. While fertile, the Vale proper is small compared to the rest of the reach and much of it appears to be the demesne of vassal houses. Gulltown itself while not particularly large appears to have a thriving trade, though how much of this goes to the Arryns and how much of it goes to the

8. House Greyjoy - This much is obvious. Their demesne is on a small, poor and comparatively (to the rest of the Iron Islands) underpopulated island. The largest town is Lordsport, and is not their demesne (held by the Botleys) so they cannot extract all the wealth from it, only tax the Botleys. Harlaw and Great Wyk are both larger, more populous and more resource rich than Pyke. Recent Greyjoy policy has sunk a lot of their wealth into the Iron Fleet and launched a catastrophic rebellion that has no doubt greatly reduced their wealth, both from the immediate damages and the cost of rebuilding. It has also isolated them from the rest of the world, and trade has not been actively fostered. Their wealth is largely based on reaving and iron and tin mining, the latter of which are industries managed by other houses. The only concrete measure of their wealth seems to be their thriftiness and the rich gifts Victarion shows at the kingsmoot.

[Lady Blackmont]

^Best answer so far.

I would personally switch the Starks and Baratheons, but everything else is in order.

I appreciate you considering whether they have a direct tax of their nobles, or only incomes of their own estates. I seem to remember some passage indicating the former, but I may be incorrect.

As for Winterfell, I highly suspect that House Stark is simply conforming to Northern standards. Winter is coming, and wasting resources on luxuries is not a part of their culture.

I would love to see a thread regarding the wealth of the regions instead of houses, that, at least, would be easier to gauge.

[Municipal Engines]

^Best answer so far.

I would personally switch the Starks and Baratheons, but everything else is in order.

I appreciate you considering whether they have a direct tax of their nobles, or only incomes of their own estates. I seem to remember some passage indicating the former, but I may be incorrect.

As for Winterfell, I highly suspect that House Stark is simply conforming to Northern standards. Winter is coming, and wasting resources on luxuries is not a part of their culture.

I would love to see a thread regarding the wealth of the regions instead of houses, that, at least, would be easier to gauge.

I was considering switching the Starks and Baratheons. The Stormlands just don't look very rich and have a smaller population than most other regions. Though there is also a question of how easy it is for the Starks and their vassals to tax the smallfolk of the North. There are likely quite a few villages that have never been taxed. I wonder how many petty lords unmentioned thus far in the books and semi-canon resources there are in the North and Westeros.

It's shocking how much untapped wealth there is in the North. Looking back on the fur trade in Canada and Russia, the North should be loaded (it quite possibly is too. GRRM mentions the economy and wealth of the North little). The waters of the Shivering Sea and Sunset Sea are said to be teeming with fish (in TWOIAF I think, and at the very least the Iron Islanders are able to survive winter on seafood alone), and there has been no mention of mining in the mountains north of Winterfell or in the hills of the upper Rills. If we carry on our Russia and Canada analogies, well, just look at the vast natural resources of both places. Land that isn't good for farming would likely be good for grazing too; with the right breed of livestock, the North could become the continent's slaughterhouse, dairy farm and tannery.

[Winter's Cold]

The question asks about Great Houses, rather than all houses. I think there are a significant number of lesser houses that are richer than the great ones; Hightower, Manderly, Redwyne and Baelish are the first that spring to mind.

By the way, is it mentioned that noble houses pay tax to their liege lords, or is it just the smallfolk and the nobles provide military service? Even still, there's no telling exactly how much they tax their vassals by if they do.

1. House Lannister - Gold, silver and trade through Lannisport. Made all the richer by Tywin's guiding the Iron Throne to indebtedness to his house, and his other policies as Hand that were geared mostly towards beefing up trade for the Westerlands. I think they're explicitly mentioned to be the richest house.

2. House Tyrell - Being the breadbasket of Westeros they have significant wealth, from both sale of food and taxes on a number of houses that are very wealthy too. Again, I think the book explicitly mentions their wealth as being eclipsed only by the Lannisters.

3. House Martell - This is an unpopular placing but hear me out. The Martells have direct control over Planky Town and Sunspear, both port settlements seated in the part of Dorne where the Summer Sea meets the Narrow Sea. This is a perfect situation for trade to flourish. They also have a market of wine, fruits and spices that seem popular in the Seven Kingdoms and beyond. Not to mention the opulence of Sunspear and the Water Gardens, and the special privileges that were negotiated during the marriage into the Seven Kingdoms.

4. House Tully - Not sure the exact extent of their demesne, but the Riverlands are the crossroads for the Seven Kingdoms, with plenty of fertile land and lots of towns to act as hubs of trade and lots of rivers to act as arteries for said trade.

At this point my estimates are a lot murkier and will probably be prone to changes.

5. House Baratheon of Storm's End - This is sans Dragonstone, King's Landing and the Crownlands. I'm putting these guys ahead of the Arryns purely for the land around Storm's End. The land would be the minimum of their demesne, and is certainly more fertile and productive than the minimum demesne of the Arryns. They also have numerous towns, the Rainwood and a portion of the Kingswood (to provide fur, timber and amber) and whatever wealth they can extract from the northern Red Mountains. Not to mention the geographic position of the Stormlands is good for fostering trade, trade that with the lack of cities is likely more evenly spread out.

6. House Stark - The wealth of the North is wool, hide and timber, and Stark lands lie in a position where these items are likely to be abundant. Not to mention the sheer size of the north and the distance between major castles and settlements likely makes their demesne very large compared to other houses. The location of Winterfell along the Kingsroad and at a hot-spring makes the castle and its town a hub, though less for trade and more for smallfolk that can be taxed. They have the whole vastness of the North to contribute to tax, but few places actually offer anything worthwhile. Manderly is most likely richer, as they control a good portion of the White Knife, a huge swathe of land including coast, silver mines and White Harbour itself. I don't know how much House Stark's comparative simplicity and plainness to the rest of the realm is due to thrift or poverty, though I'm leaning more to thrift due to Ned's ideals and Northern culture in general. Winterfell itself must cost a fortune for the upkeep, however, though when there's a tower that's been derelict for 140 years, one can question the commitment to upkeep.

7. House Arryn - I'm placing them this low mostly for the fact that their demesne seems, at the minimum, to consist only of the Eyrie and the Gates of the Moon, which are located on top of and at the foot of the Giant's Lance. There seems to be no mining operation going on in the mountain and though I do not know how much fertile land they have in the surroundings of the mountain, the upkeep of the five castles on and at the foot of the Lance must be rather costly. While fertile, the Vale proper is small compared to the rest of the reach and much of it appears to be the demesne of vassal houses. Gulltown itself while not particularly large appears to have a thriving trade, though how much of this goes to the Arryns and how much of it goes to the

8. House Greyjoy - This much is obvious. Their demesne is on a small, poor and comparatively (to the rest of the Iron Islands) underpopulated island. The largest town is Lordsport, and is not their demesne (held by the Botleys) so they cannot extract all the wealth from it, only tax the Botleys. Harlaw and Great Wyk are both larger, more populous and more resource rich than Pyke. Recent Greyjoy policy has sunk a lot of their wealth into the Iron Fleet and launched a catastrophic rebellion that has no doubt greatly reduced their wealth, both from the immediate damages and the cost of rebuilding. It has also isolated them from the rest of the world, and trade has not been actively fostered. Their wealth is largely based on reaving and iron and tin mining, the latter of which are industries managed by other houses. The only concrete measure of their wealth seems to be their thriftiness and the rich gifts Victarion shows at the kingsmoot.

House Stark is the overlord of House Manderly. Which means some of the profit from White Harbor's trade and silver mines goes to them. White Harbor also is a major city in Westeros. Dorne, the Riverlands and the Stormlands have no equivalent. That alone elevates them over Houses Tully, Baratheon and Baratheon. Besides they were rich enough to build a greenhouse by imported expensive Myrish glass.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

House Stark is the overlord of House Manderly.

They are also overlords of the Crannogmen and Skagosi. The Houses there are not going to be providing many taxes.

Even Houses like the Mormonts seem poor. Manderlys aside, many of the Northern Houses seem below average their southern counterparts.

Which means some of the profit from White Harbor's trade and silver mines goes to them. White Harbor also is a major city in Westeros. Dorne, the Riverlands and the Stormlands have no equivalent.That alone elevates them over Houses Tully, Baratheon and Baratheon.

Dorne and the Stormlands is debatable but there is not a chance the Starks (the North) are above the Tullys (Riverlands).

We are told in the World book how Fairmarket, Saltans and Lord Harroways town were refused charters to make them cities. It is not that the Riverlands is incapable of cities, but they instead have a multitude of prosperous towns throughout the region, all of whom pay taxes to the Tullys.

We are also told how Riverrun, based on its strategic position, made the Tullys wealthy and powerful even before they became overlords of the Riverlands.

Besides they were rich enough to build a greenhouse by imported expensive Myrish glass.

Pretty sure every Great House is rich enough to do that. A more telling sign is the Broken Tower in Winterfell which has not been fixed in the 140 years since it was hit by lightening.