Tyrion Lannister brought down by Sansa Stark.....

[Le Cygne]

I'm getting this from the clear lack of language about force, sword point, farce, false, invalid or any thing else that might suggest they felt the vows were coerced.

Above you are saying they don't feel the vows were coerced.

Everyone knows the vows were coerced. That they don't in every statement they make say, the vows were coerced does not mean they do not all know full well that they were.

Again, considering Luwin makes comments about Lady Hornwood and yet no one makes comments about Sansa says something.

Again, back to sword point. She was threatened with the Kingsguard. Clearly. That's sword point.

you will end up wedded and bedded all the same.” The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without

Maester Luwin was stating what everyone says throughout the books:

“Vows made at sword point are not valid,” the maester argued.

So not seeing how this is different from the other two forced marriages in the story, the Ramsay Snow ones.

The only difference could possibly be that Sansa or her family consented, and they did not.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Above you are saying they don't feel the vows were coerced.

Everyone knows the vows were coerced. That they don't in every statement they make say, the vows were coerced does not mean they do not all know full well that they were.

That's even Arya's first thought, when she hears the news in that tavern when she's with the Hound. "Sansa would never marry the imp", she thinks (probably paraphrased). If Arya sees that right away, for sure Catelyn and Robb understood that she didn't marry Tyrion freely.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

That they don't in every statement they make say, the vows were coerced does not mean they do not all know full well that they were.

They never once say the vows were coerced. Not at all. That is what I've been saying from the very beginning. Not Sansa's family and not the royal court.

That's even Arya's first thought, when she hears the news in that tavern when she's with the Hound. "Sansa would never marry the imp", she thinks (probably paraphrased). If Arya sees that right away, for sure Catelyn and Robb understood that she didn't marry Tyrion freely.

I stand corrected. Only Arya thinks it. (out of the mouth of babes again!) But no, Cat and Robb do not say anything of the kind. They only remove Sansa from the line of succession and legitimize Jon to keep Winterfell safe. Sorry folks. It is what it is.

[Le Cygne]

They never once say the vows were coerced. Not at all. That is what I've been saying from the very beginning. Not Sansa's family and not the royal court.

I stand corrected. Only Arya thinks it. (out of the mouth of babes again!) But no, Cat and Robb do not say anything of the kind. They only remove Sansa from the line of succession and legitimize Jon to keep Winterfell safe. Sorry folks. It is what it is.

They are at war. It's an act of war. They couldn't do anything about it at the moment. That doesn't mean they don't think this:

I'm getting this from the clear lack of language about force, sword point, farce, false, invalid or any thing else that might suggest they felt the vows were coerced.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

They are at war. It's an act of war. They couldn't do anything about it at the moment. That doesn't mean they don't think this:

Thinking is not doing. There's no reason for them not to think it or even to discuss it. They don't. Being at war did not prevent them from discussing the situation's validity.

[Dornishpenguin]

If they had a chance of getting Sansa back at this point, I'm sure that Robb and Cat would have tried to declare the marriage invalid somehow. However, considering that Sansa was stuck in KL under control of the Lannisters, it would not have made a difference. We can't know what the scenario would have been for sure if Sansa someone returned to her family after the wedding, but I'd imagine that they would end the marriage, either using the unconsummated card or having Tyrion assassinated.

[Le Cygne]

Thinking is not doing. There's no reason for them not to think it or even to discuss it. They don't. Being at war did not prevent them from discussing the situation's validity.

So Robb says she's going to be killed, too. Does that mean he thinks that's valid? Or that if there was anything he could do to prevent it, he would not try to? He would just leave her there to be killed?

That's nonsense from any standpoint, but we've even got an example in the story where another Stark did no such thing.

[Jory Cassel]

They never once say the vows were coerced. Not at all. That is what I've been saying from the very beginning. Not Sansa's family and not the royal court.

I stand corrected. Only Arya thinks it. (out of the mouth of babes again!) But no, Cat and Robb do not say anything of the kind. They only remove Sansa from the line of succession and legitimize Jon to keep Winterfell safe. Sorry folks. It is what it is.

And when do we see someone at court talk in private/without having to fear the reaction of the ruling party? Regardless of whether the marriage was considered to be coerced, no one would speak up against it.

I'm getting this from the clear lack of language about force, sword point, farce, false, invalid or any thing else that might suggest they felt the vows were coerced.

(...)

They may not have been in the position to come to prevent the marriage but there is nothing stopping them from complaining about her being forced. Instead the word Cat uses is "given" not falsely given or forcibly given and Robb doesn't mention anything about the marriage but instead fears for her safety after she produces an heir. His quote would have been the perfect time to mention forced vows and sword point but it is not mentioned at all. No one in the text does not even Littlefinger who clearly wants her freed from the marriage.

(...)

They made her speak the vows before a septon and don a crimson cloak.

To me it looks as if Robb thinks the marriage forced.

eta: edited for clarity

[Ser Pounce FTW]

If they had a chance of getting Sansa back at this point, I'm sure that Robb and Cat would have tried to declare the marriage invalid somehow. However, considering that Sansa was stuck in KL under control of the Lannisters, it would not have made a difference. We can't know what the scenario would have been for sure if Sansa someone returned to her family after the wedding, but I'd imagine that they would end the marriage, either using the unconsummated card or having Tyrion assassinated.

Exactly. Not by saying it was never legal to begin with. The marriage is definitely considered valid by the community. Her family does not condemn the act or question its validity and neither does anyone at court.

And when do we see someone at court talk in private/without having to fear the reaction of the ruling party? Regardless of whether the marriage was considered to be coerced, no one would speak up against it.

We hear people laughing about the lack of consummation. Why would they does this if they felt the marriage was coerced. They didn't laugh to show agreement with the ruling party. In fact, that could have led to problems for them.

[Le Cygne]

Exactly. Not by saying it was never legal to begin with. The marriage is definitely considered valid by the community. Her family does not condemn the act or question its validity and neither does anyone at court.

But that's not what they are saying, all the quotes indicate a forced marriage, and it's condemned by many, notably the injured parties.

Do you want them to use the word "sword point" and "condemn" or you won't accept this?

[Dicer]

Why does Stannis not consider the marriage illegal? According to him, Joffrey is not the rightful king but a Lannister bastard and would have no authority to order a marriage. Stannis is the rightful king. But he seems to think the marriage a done deal.

"By right Winterfell should go to my sister Sansa.”
“Lady Lannister, you mean? Are you so eager to see the Imp perched on your father’s seat? I promise you, that will not happen whilst I live, Lord Snow.”

Lysa, Robb, Cat, LF, Tywin and Stannis all think the marriage legal and expected that Tyrion would consummate it. The common folk working in the keep expected that Tyrion would sleep with his wife. That he went against the expectations of all these people and did not do it (For Sansa's sake) tells us that he is a better man than how most people see him.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

But that's not what they are saying, all the quotes indicate a forced marriage, and it's condemned by many, notably the injured parties.

Please produce once quote of anyone condemning it. We've already discussed Sansa and Tyrion's thoughts about their marriage being a farce.

Do you want them to use the word "sword point" and "condemn" or you won't accept this?

Let's look at the scene, shall we?

"No. It's Sansa."

She's dead, Catelyn thought at once. Brienne failed, Jaime is dead, and Cersei has killed my sweet girl in retribution. For a moment she could barely speak. "Is . . . is she gone, Robb?"

"Gone?" He looked startled. "Dead? Oh, Mother, no, not that, they haven't harmed her, not that way, only . . . a bird came last night, but I couldn't bring myself to tell you, not until your father was sent to his rest." Robb took her hand. "They married her to Tyrion Lannister."

Catelyn's fingers clutched at his. "The Imp."

"Yes."

"He swore to trade her for his brother," she said numbly. "Sansa and Arya both. We would have them back if we returned his precious Jaime, he swore it before the whole court. How could he marry her, after saying that in sight of gods and men?" (nothing questioning who had the right to do this or Sansa being coerced)

"He's the Kingslayer's brother. Oathbreaking runs in their blood." Robb's fingers brushed the pommel of his sword. "If I could I'd take his ugly head off. Sansa would be a widow then, and free. There's no other way that I can see. They made her speak the vows before a septon and don a crimson cloak." (nothing about validity or speaking vows at sword point. If anything, this shows they consider it very legal and binding since the vows were spoken before a septon)

Catelyn remembered the twisted little man she had seized at the crossroads inn and carried all the way to the Eyrie. "I should have let Lysa push him out her Moon Door. My poor sweet Sansa . . . why would anyone do this to her?" (no condemnation of the marriage, just sadness for Sansa)

"For Winterfell," Robb said at once. "With Bran and Rickon dead, Sansa is my heir. If anything should happen to me . . . "

She clutched tight at his hand. "Nothing will happen to you. Nothing. I could not stand it. They took Ned, and your sweet brothers. Sansa is married, Arya is lost, my father's dead . . . if anything befell you, I would go mad, Robb. You are all I have left. You are all the north has left." (no outrage over this just angst over danger befalling Robb)

"I am not dead yet, Mother."

Suddenly Catelyn was full of dread. "Wars need not be fought until the last drop of blood." Even she could hear the desperation in her voice. "You would not be the first king to bend the knee, nor even the first Stark." (not even talking about Sansa anymore)

[Le Cygne]

Why does Stannis not consider the marriage illegal? According to him, Joffrey is not the rightful king but a Lannister bastard and would have no authority to order a marriage. Stannis is the rightful king. But he seems to think the marriage a done deal.

Lysa, Robb, Cat, LF, Tywin and Stannis all think the marriage legal and expected that Tyrion would consummate it. The common folk working in the keep expected that Tyrion would sleep with his wife. That he went against the expectations of all these people and did not do it (For Sansa's sake) tells us that he is a better man than how most people see him.

"He did it for Sansa's sake." Too bad he didn't marry her for Sansa's sake. They expected the worst of him. You're not seeing Catelyn or Robb saying he's a "better man" than anyone.

You're mixing things up. Ser Pounce is saying no one felt the vows were coerced:

I'm getting this from the clear lack of language about force, sword point, farce, false, invalid or any thing else that might suggest they felt the vows were coerced.

[Dornishpenguin]

Exactly. Not by saying it was never legal to begin with. The marriage is definitely considered valid by the community. Her family does not condemn the act or question its validity and neither does anyone at court.

Technically speaking, you are right- the marriage was considered legal at the time. Even though I think Robb and Cat knew that Sansa was forced into it, they acknowledge the validity of the marriage. That is only because the Lannisters were in power and could theoretically do whatever they wanted. However, in the event Joffrey's head ended up on a spike next to Tywin's and the rest of the Lannister's stripped of authority, they could easily claim that there was no legal basis for the marriage. It would be simpler to just off Tyrion though and prove Sansa's virginity.

[Le Cygne]

Please produce once quote of anyone condemning it. We've already discussed Sansa and Tyrion's thoughts about their marriage being a farce.

Every quote I've produced shows that.

[Jory Cassel]

We hear people laughing about the lack of consummation. Why would they does this if they felt the marriage was coerced. They didn't laugh to show agreement with the ruling party. In fact, that could have led to problems for them.

non-consumation can only be a reason for annulment, it is not questioning the validity of the marriage on the whole. Considering it coerced and saying so would lead to the automatic conclusion of ex tunc invalidity without any further measures negating every claim of the Lannisters on WF, doing so would be a wholly different dimension.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Technically speaking, you are right- the marriage was considered legal at the time. Even though I think Robb and Cat knew that Sansa was forced into it, they acknowledge the validity of the marriage. That is only because the Lannisters were in power and could theoretically do whatever they wanted. However, in the event Joffrey's head ended up on a spike next to Tywin's and the rest of the Lannister's stripped of authority, they could easily claim that there was no legal basis for the marriage. It would be simpler to just off Tyrion though and prove Sansa's virginity.

And yet they don't ever once think that Sansa will be freed when Joffrey is killed. They think she will be freed when Tyrion is killed. So no, not about Lannister power.

[Dicer]

"He did it for Sansa's sake." Too bad he didn't marry her for Sansa's sake. They expected the worst of him. You're not seeing Catelyn or Robb saying he's a "better man" than anyone.

You're mixing things up. Ser Pounce is saying Robb and Catelyn did not feel the vows were coerced:

I think Ser Pounce is saying that it does not matter in the grand scheme of things if Sansa's vows were coerced. Robb acknowledges that it is coerced when he says that they 'made' her say her vows. But the fact remains that Sansa and Tyrion were married before the seven and it is a legal marriage that can only be annulled by the high Septon in KL. And once married, Tyrion had every right to bed his wife. That was the whole point of getting Sansa married to a Lannister. So that her Lannister children would get Winterfell. Robb disinherits Sansa because he did not want her children to get Winterfell.

That was why everyone expected that Tyrion would sleep with his wife. Not because they expected the worse from him. They already did. He was a Lannister and an enemy. He was fighting a war against them and married Sansa instead of releasing her. They expected Tyrion to sleep with his wife because that's how it goes in Westeros society. The concept of marital rape does not exist. It does not matter if a marriage is arranged by one's family or one's enemy. One is required to sleep with their husband and vice versa, no matter how much they dislike it.

So yes, I think Tyrion did the decent thing when he went against the grain and societal expectations and did not exercise his rights as husband. Who would have thought worse of him if he had raped her? The Starks? They already expected that of him.

That is only because the Lannisters were in power and could theoretically do whatever they wanted. However, in the event Joffrey's head ended up on a spike next to Tywin's and the rest of the Lannister's stripped of authority, they could easily claim that there was no legal basis for the marriage.

I think this is disproved by Stannis' view of the marriage as legal. Considering that he knows that Joffrey is a Lannister and not the rightful king. But he never talks about giving Sansa Winterfell after he kicks the Lannisters off the throne. He says that as long as he lives Lady Lannister is not getting WF.

[Le Cygne]

However, in the event Joffrey's head ended up on a spike next to Tywin's and the rest of the Lannister's stripped of authority, they could easily claim that there was no legal basis for the marriage. It would be simpler to just off Tyrion though and prove Sansa's virginity.

Yes, this is the point I have been making. They could say it was a vow taken at sword point. They could say Joffrey was a bastard. They could do any number of things and justify them after the fact, if they were in power. It has to do with who is in power. Things change.

They had Sansa. That was their move in the game. Robb's only move at the time was to disinherit her. Clearly there would have been a next move. He wasn't just going to leave Sansa there for her to be killed. And if there's no will, they're going to fight for the North, too.

I think Ser Pounce is saying that it does not matter in the grand scheme of things if Sansa's vows were coerced. Robb acknowledges that it is coerced when he says that they 'made' her say her vows. But the fact remains that Sansa and Tyrion were married before the seven and it is a legal marriage that can only be annulled by the high Septon in KL. And once married, Tyrion had every right to bed his wife. That was the whole point of getting Sansa married to a Lannister. So that her Lannister children would get Winterfell. Robb disinherits Sansa because he did not want her children to get Winterfell.

No, he has clearly and repeatedly said the vows were not coerced. And yes, Robb clearly indicates they were when he says they "made her" do it.

Again, you're talking like everything remains as it always has been forever and ever amen. That's not what history tells us.

And I'm not going get into the Tyrion gets a cookie for not raping Sansa stuff again.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I think Ser Pounce is saying that it does not matter in the grand scheme of things if Sansa's vows were coerced. Robb acknowledges that it is coerced when he says that they 'made' her say her vows. But the fact remains that Sansa and Tyrion were married before the seven and it is a legal marriage that can only be annulled by the high Septon in KL. And once married, Tyrion had every right to bed his wife. That was the whole point of getting Sansa married to a Lannister. So that her Lannister children would get Winterfell. Robb disinherits Sansa because he did not want her children to get Winterfell.

That was why everyone expected that Tyrion would sleep with his wife. Not because they expected the worse from him. They already did. He was a Lannister and an enemy. He was fighting a war with the. They expected Tyrion to sleep with his wife because that's how it goes in Westeros society. The concept of marital rape does not exist. It does not matter if a marriage is arranged by one's family or one's enemy. One is required to sleep with their husband and vice versa, no matter how much they dislike it.

So yes, I think Tyrion did the decent thing when he went against the grain and societal expectations and did not exercise his rights as husband. Who would have thought worse of him if he had raped her? The Starks? They already expected that of him.

This, except while Robb say they "made" her, I don't think he feels there's enough to say it was coerced. I think he's emphasizing where she said her vows, not how. But that is splitting hairs. The essence of the situation is no Stark, save Arya, thinks this was forcibly done and therefore is invalid. Robb and Cat most likely felt that while Sansa didn't eagerly say her vows to Tyrion, there was little she could do not to say them. Not at all the same as "at sword point" and therefore perfectly valid and legal.

Tyrion did the right thing by her when he did not live up to societal expectations and did not consummate the marriage because she was so clearly frightened and Sansa clearly understands this even if she still doesn't trust him.