Tyrion Lannister brought down by Sansa Stark.....

[Newstar]

Tyrion wanted to burn the Vale down as revenge against Lysa. Assuming that Sweetrobin won't live much longer (for LF's plans to work, Sweetrobin has to die), there will be no one left for Tyrion to punish, so burning the Eyrie would serve little purpose for him, now wouldn't it?

Hard to say. I didn't get the sense that Tyrion's anger with respect to the Vale began and ended with Lysa. Otherwise, why would he dream of burning down the Vale as opposed to wringing Lysa's neck?

If you were to say that Tyrion would kill LF (who had set him up with the dagger in the beginning), that might eventually lead to Sansa being free from manipulation, and her relationship with Tyrion might actually become one where they will no longer have to hide behind curtesies. Perhaps after such an event, they might actually be capable of having a normal conversation. This could lead to a friendship, and with Sansa in Winterfell (either as the ruling Lady or as regent until Rickon comes of age, assuming Rickon is reinstalled by Davos and Manderly) and Tyrion in Casterly Rock, this would finally mean peace between the North and the Westerlands.

I am highly, highly skeptical of any outcome that assumes any sort of maturity or spirit of forgiveness on Tyrion's part. :D And if Sansa no longer feels like she has to "hide behind courtesies" with Tyrion, and vice versa, what makes you think they'll have anything to say that the other wants to hear, let alone something that would be conducive to friendship? It's not like the thoughts they sat on and veiled through courtesies were charitable or kind ones.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Re Tyrion & the Vale, he still owes the Hill Tribes a debt & you know what they say about Lannisters and debts...

[para]

Not well, not as such. Not wishing him dead either, but certainly not well. Honestly, how many people did Sansa wish death upon? Two? Three? Or just Joffrey alone?

Joffrey. Janos Slynt. Walder Frey.

One of them died because of her, the other just in the way she wished it. The third is an old man who doesn't need Harrenhall's curse to expire soon. Going by those odds, it seems like a bad idea to get on Sansa's bad side.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

She will develop, though. Please let her keep up the thinking. Crying is also one of the sanest reactions.

We'll have to wait for Winds of Winter to learn more.

I'm sure she will, and will eventually do something. It would just be poor storytelling if she remained an observer and pawn through seven books. But we have no evidence that she is the type to take any action thus far, save that moment on the battlements when she almost grabbed Joff and jumped to their deaths. She should've done that, and I would respect her as a character much more.

[Le Cygne]

She thinks that he was kind to her in her second to last ASOS chapter when she's talking with Lysa. I think there's a fair bit of mutual respect there. Outside of an awkward marriage I could more easily see the two being allies than enemies.

Compared to him and Jorah, Tyrion and Sansa have a friendly rapport. So far as I'm aware Tyrion never has any hateful or even grudging thoughts towards Sansa. And nor does Sansa have any towards him.

Seriously? Her opinion of him is only going to get worse once she learns everything, but it's not good. He doesn't like her any more than she likes him.

The marriage was a horrible thing, and involved the loss of her family and home, and even her own life after she was forced to bear heirs (that's what Robb thought). She knows enough of this to tell herself she would escape or die. He made a vow to return her to her mother that he broke, and he even tried to break Jaime out of jail. He left his hostage at the mercy of Joffrey, until walking in on one of many public beatings. He could have tried to help her escape or warned her about the marriage, but he didn't. He was tempted by Winterfell.

She cried during the ceremony. She refused to kneel to accept his cloak, the one rebellion afforded her, yet later, he blamed her for robbing him of his dignity. He commanded her to undress and not even cover herself, while getting undressed himself. While she was shivering, naked in the cold, knowing she finds him repulsive, he groped her. He had second thoughts and she let him know she would "never" get used to him. But he was pretty resentful after that. Later, when he thought of forcing himself on her again, he figured she wouldn't cry too much.

He thinks the worst of Sansa, that she killed Joffrey. When asked did he kill Joffrey, he said no, but when asked did Sansa kill him, he didn't say yes or no. The least he could do after the forced marriage painted a target on her back. She thinks he is "no friend" and it was a "mockery of a marriage" and he told her a "Lannister lie." Twice when she heard he was dead, she didn't give it a second thought (just figured she'd better stay away from Kings Landing or she'd get the same). And even Miss Courtesy knew better than to say he was "kind" not to rape her.

And after it's over, he said she is "false," like Shae.

[Sansa_Stark]

He said she was false, but I don't think that means he really hates her.

He also thinks he misses Shae at the end of Dance.

Murdering Shae was just an awful thing he did at a low point in his life.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Hey @Newstar,

[...] Odds are on Dany or Jon at the moment, as any of the Wars of the Roses threads on the boards will tell you.

Exactly. Not enough feeling there on either side. If GRRM were heading in that direction, I think Tyrion and Sansa's POVs in AFFC/ADWD would have had a very different flavour.

Given that winter is here, and that the prophecies were not precisely literal (the serpents in Sansa's hair being the poisonous stones), any castle where snow winds up falling could be a "castle made of snow."

Hmm, I haven't been around long enough to spot the Wars of the Roses threads. I see there's much more to catch up, thanks for pointing me there.

No, I did not think or expect Grrm to head that way, I rather pity that he doesn't.

Strong last point!

Hey @Annara Snow!

Um, first off, a reportedly good lover according to whom?

Truly, it's according to Tyrion himself. That doesn't count I admit.

Why the heck would anyone want to have sex with someone who sexually repulses them?

Good question.

It's not even a question of getting a "beautiful/handsome face" - Sandor certainly doesn't have one, and she's still sexually attracted to him.

I did not notice that.

I guarantee that you wouldn't be suggesting the same if the roles were reversed.

Just when I thought I'd lose all of the argument. Why not? How come you guarantee? This is rather strange.

Why doesn't anyone suggest that Tyrion should have sex with Lollys, a woman who physically repulses him to the point he says he'd rather have his cock cut off and fed to the goats than marry her? For all you know, she may turn out to be a good lover if he gave her a chance... :rolleyes:

Because there is no gain in it. Neither physical attraction nor gain as in children he wanted, a title, castle, retainers or new alliances that would further his cause.

Sansa would get nearly all that, except, as you note, the first one.

Secondly, the main thing Sansa wants in a marriage is love, and someone who loves her for herself rather than her claim. So she should be happy with someone who doesn't love her and has little interest in her as a person, other than for her claim to Winterfell and the North?

Now does she? Sansa lives in her bookish knight-and-lady-story like dreams. Should she marry Brienne then, who lives her dreams? Does Sansa actually know any other love than that of her parents and some human kindness? In the latter, Tyrion has so far proven to be closest.

Whether Tyrion knows about love as you will be asking below... same thing. He knows about human kindness and has practised a growing love with Shae for a while (and Tysha).

And Tyrion tells us he gives a damn about Winterfell, it is the Rock that has to be his.

If your argument is that she should marry for gold, maybe you're picking a wrong bride for Tyrion? There are lots of them who would have him for gold; Sansa is not one of them.

[...] Really, what you're suggesting is the worst of all bad ideas ever suggested. :bang:

I love that angry little headbanger^^^!

Who cares for "all the gold in Casterly Rock" - not Sansa. And not Tyrion either. Tyrion unknowingly created gold on drugs, as he has just created a pile of new paper money and written deeds. Wait what that turns out to be. It's crazy innovative and powerful. I, at least, couldn't help but feel impressed.

Ihe only way I could see Sansa and Tyrion deciding to remain "married" would be if it's a marriage in name only, where they don't live together, never have sex with each other, and are free to sleep with and have kids whoever else they want. So, if that can work, then maybe, and only then, I could see them remaining "married".

They are there already. It will take enormous effort to change that. So you could remain right.

As funny as it is though, marriages serve quite a lot more than providing a frame around a sexual relation. And many don't even do that. And pregnancies where "the culprits" find each other quite repulsive happen all the time. I wish I knew why. Maybe it is mother nature's way of saying "and you think you are sapient?"

Thanks for taking your time for the elaborate argument.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

Murdering Shae was just an awful thing he did at a low point in his life.

You condemn one of his greatest acts??? Losing Shae's boring presence was a high point of the series.

[Sansa_Stark]

You condemn one of his greatest acts??? Losing Shae's boring presence was a high point of the series.

I thought Shae was funny.

But it was one of his top 3 worst acts imo.

[Ashlesha]

Absolutely not. GRRM has made it very clear that Tyrion is his favourite character and hinted that Tyrion will never die.

As GRRM has said many times Tyrion is fun. He will continue to remain like that. Besides he is a POV character and we have had no indication that he is turning dark.

The point many people fail to see in the prophecy is "slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow".

All the prophecies in ASOIAF are pretty straightforward and are not twisted to involve hell lot of assumption. Who can truly be described as a Savage ? I think the only person is "Ramsay Bolton" or at max The Mountain. Castle of Snow ? Winterfel. That is extremely obvious in my opinion.

How Sansa reaches Winterfell and how she kills alone is what we need to see.

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

In a way, sansa already brought Tyrion down, inadvertently. She had the poison that killed Joffery and left without him after the incedent (admittedly this may have saved him, Little Finger would probably have killed him). She also may have inadvertently doomed Robert Arryn. I hope she kills little finger though, or, Crackpot theory,: an actual giant.

[protar]

@Le Cygne.

Not to disrespect your detailed post, but in all honesty I don't think the specific circumstances of Sansa and Tyrion's marriage and time at KL are really relevant to this discussion. What matters In this thread is Sansa and Tyrion's opinion of one another - Which is neutral leaning ever so slightly towards positive. I really don't see how this can in any way be denied because Sansa outright admits she considers Tyrion kind in her internal monologue (the reason for not saying it out-loud quite obviously being that she's in the company of someone who hates Tyrion.). There are other quotes which show less fondness, but none of them show any hate. It could well go either way, but I think if they were to meet in a situation outside of their marriage/Sansa's captivity that they could easily become allies.

[Jellyfish]

Hey @Newstar,

Hmm, I haven't been around long enough to spot the Wars of the Roses threads. I see there's much more to catch up, thanks for pointing me there.

No, I did not think or expect Grrm to head that way, I rather pity that he doesn't.

Strong last point!

Hey @Annara Snow!

Truly, it's according to Tyrion himself. That doesn't count I admit.

Good question.

I did not notice that.

Just when I thought I'd lose all of the argument. Why not? How come you guarantee? This is rather strange.

Because there is no gain in it. Neither physical attraction nor gain as in children he wanted, a title, castle, retainers or new alliances that would further his cause.

Sansa would get nearly all that, except, as you note, the first one.

Now does she? Sansa lives in her bookish knight-and-lady-story like dreams. Should she marry Brienne then, who lives her dreams? Does Sansa actually know any other love than that of her parents and some human kindness? In the latter, Tyrion has so far proven to be closest.

Whether Tyrion knows about love as you will be asking below... same thing. He knows about human kindness and has practised a growing love with Shae for a while (and Tysha).

And Tyrion tells us he gives a damn about Winterfell, it is the Rock that has to be his.

I love that angry little headbanger^^^!

Who cares for "all the gold in Casterly Rock" - not Sansa. And not Tyrion either. Tyrion unknowingly created gold on drugs, as he has just created a pile of new paper money and written deeds. Wait what that turns out to be. It's crazy innovative and powerful. I, at least, couldn't help but feel impressed.

They are there already. It will take enormous effort to change that. So you could remain right.

As funny as it is though, marriages serve quite a lot more than providing a frame around a sexual relation. And many don't even do that. And pregnancies where "the culprits" find each other quite repulsive happen all the time. I wish I knew why. Maybe it is mother nature's way of saying "and you think you are sapient?"

Thanks for taking your time for the elaborate argument.

Hi Starkaryaetheon.....complicated

I am new to this forum too and I as well would believe that an ending where Sansa and Tyrion might stay together is entirely within the narrative logic of the books.

this would be an entirely free decision, of course, what else, they could always go separate ways if they want. But the story, meaning the author, might teach them to value and respect each other and to feel at home with each other, who knows. and this may be a version of bittersweet, though maybe more sweet than bitter.

after a short time of reading in these forums i have realised that there are some posters who dislike the idea of Sansa and Tyrion as couple in the end and that several posters dislike Tyrion general.But is this typical for fandom? not among the readers and show watchers I know and we are mostly female friends of ASOIAF. But then we are from Europe and no native speakers, would there be any cultural differences?

I

[Rara Avis]

has practised a growing love with Shae for a while (and Tysha).

He raped Tysha and killed Shae... some love.

I know I'd take Brienne over him anyday, regardless of my sexuality. At least she's a good human being and not gross.

Which is neutral leaning ever so slightly towards positive.

I agree. There is not history of particularly strong feelings between them. Sansa isn't nursing anger at Tyrion, she has bigger fish to fry, and I don't see her bringing him down as particularly emotionally satisfactory.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Seriously? Her opinion of him is only going to get worse once she learns everything, but it's not good. He doesn't like her any more than she likes him.

The marriage was a horrible thing, and involved the loss of her family and home, and even her own life after she was forced to bear heirs (that's what Robb thought). She knows enough of this to tell herself she would escape or die. He made a vow to return her to her mother that he broke, and he even tried to break Jaime out of jail. He left his hostage at the mercy of Joffrey, until walking in on one of many public beatings. He could have tried to help her escape or warned her about the marriage, but he didn't. He was tempted by Winterfell.

Tyrion promises to send Sansa home once there is peace. No peace arrives, so he isn't breaking his word. Trying to break Jaime out of jail would have been another way to get to a possible peace, and so he tried. Tyrion stopped the abuse of Sansa from Joffrey upon his arrival at court. But he's still a Lannister, and Sansa's family still holds his brother. Why on earth would he help her escape? That would mean the death of Jaime, for Sansa would certainly tell her family of how Arya was lost, how Joffrey had her beated, and how Ned's corpse was used against her.

He didn't warn her about the wedding, because there was no way it was not going to happen. Instead of telling her and letting her dread the moment for days or maybe weeks, he spared her that little misery.

She cried during the ceremony. She refused to kneel to accept his cloak, the one rebellion afforded her, yet later, he blamed her for robbing him of his dignity. He commanded her to undress and not even cover herself, while getting undressed himself. While she was shivering, naked in the cold, knowing she finds him repulsive, he groped her. He had second thoughts and she let him know she would "never" get used to him. But he was pretty resentful after that. Later, when he thought of forcing himself on her again, he figured she wouldn't cry too much.

Yes she cried, and yes, she refused to kneel. All very normal reactions, to us, the readers. But Tyrion sees it differently. She was to become his wife, they would be together one. And she made a mockery out of him, though it doubt she realised that before. Tyrion was ordered the bedding, and so he tried to go through with it, only to find himself uncapable. He did not rape her, and you fault him for that?

Of course he is a bit bitter about how low his own marriage is. Everywhere he looks, especially during Joffrey's wedding, where most of these feeling surface, he seems married couples in love. That's the one thing Tyrion has been missing all his life. Out of all his direct environment, only Jaime has truly shows affection for him. So is it so strange that Tyrion had hoped that Sansa, especially after all the kind things he did for her, would at least warm a bit towards him? That she would at least speak with him?

Also, when he thinks about kissing her, he thinks she would most likely suffer through it. Not that she would cry too much.

He thinks the worst of Sansa, that she killed Joffrey. When asked did he kill Joffrey, he said no, but when asked did Sansa kill him, he didn't say yes or no. The least he could do after the forced marriage painted a target on her back. She thinks he is "no friend" and it was a "mockery of a marriage" and he told her a "Lannister lie." Twice when she heard he was dead, she didn't give it a second thought (just figured she'd better stay away from Kings Landing or she'd get the same). And even Miss Courtesy knew better than to say he was "kind" not to rape her.

Tyrion stands accused of killing Joffrey, and in his confinement, there is not much else to do but think about what happened. Sansa had the motive, bother personal (Joffrey abusing her) and less personal (Joffrey's family responsible for the deaths of her family). He knows Sansa would have had the oppertunity. The cup Joffrey was drinking from was placed right in front of her, and everyone was focussed on Joff and Tyrion fighting. But Tyrion also notes that Sansa couldn't possibly have done it alone, if she had even done it. For where would she get the poison?

Sansa, does think of Tyrion as kind, but she also knows that to Lysa, with whom she is having the conversation, she could never say so, for Lysa hated Tyrion too much to accept such words. And yes, she sees her marriage as a mockery, since that's exactly what it was.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Hey @Jellyfish!

Welcome to the board

[...] several posters dislike Tyrion general.

The disliking should be quite allright I guess. Tyrion is just as much dislikeable as he is likeable. Though he be my male favorite (toghether the long list of all the Jons great or small of course), he is very unlike myself. But I sympathise the whole way through. I myself would have done the Catelyn/Brienne¹/Eddard Stark kind of decision, shared their fate and now be dead of sorts to tell the truth.
Tyrion lives¹, so he undoubtedly did better, but how people felt about that is another story.

(1: Yes, our white knight Brienne probably still lives: At least it is Jaime's impression. Good that not only Tyrion has got brains, she said "the word"!)

Wasn't it the OP saying Sansa should have hugged King Joffrey and jumped with him down from the battlements into what looked like certain death to her? How heroic. Now, I prefer Sansa among the living. Unlike Joff, she has managed to survive and somehow has also made her dreams survive. That's an achievement.

[...] But is this typical for fandom? not among the readers and show watchers I know and we are mostly female friends of ASOIAF. But then we are from Europe and no native speakers, would there be any cultural differences?

I

I must be new to this kind of fandom. I wouldn't know.

So you think of differences in culture between us Westerosi compared to those across the Sunset Sea or the Narrow Sea? Well, I guess there would be.

It may well be not so much cultural than a difference of age, life experience and inclination to wear the tear of so many roles in the game and and continuedly make the effort to sympathise.
Like what would Tywin or Theon or Ramsey or Mago do? (shudder).
I realised that whenever you meet someone, who looks truly good in ASOIAF, their name will be Jon or Brienne. And even they are people to as we see.

That combined with how slowly you read and rethink what is happening.
When I once thought I was among the slowliest readers, I find no, I am not. Far off.

[Jellyfish]

oh, I would never see Tyrion as flawless good guy, there may be plenty of reasons to despise some of his actions, he may have committed war crimes and murders, but I like him very much as literature character, as book invention. he is the most interesting of Martin's creations. and he fights and never gives up, admirable. this does not mean I would like to share an appartment with an alcoholic but I would enjoy his jokes. and I like Sansa the dreamy girl, she is not flawless either but who would not forgive a thirteen year old

editing: And yes, I tend to be forgiving. but I indeed am not so young and have seen a lot :D only what I can not forgive to a character is when they bore me

[Ours if the Fury]

Wait what is this about????

[Ser Pounce FTW]

@Le Cygne.

Not to disrespect your detailed post, but in all honesty I don't think the specific circumstances of Sansa and Tyrion's marriage and time at KL are really relevant to this discussion. What matters In this thread is Sansa and Tyrion's opinion of one another - Which is neutral leaning ever so slightly towards positive. I really don't see how this can in any way be denied because Sansa outright admits she considers Tyrion kind in her internal monologue (the reason for not saying it out-loud quite obviously being that she's in the company of someone who hates Tyrion.). There are other quotes which show less fondness, but none of them show any hate. It could well go either way, but I think if they were to meet in a situation outside of their marriage/Sansa's captivity that they could easily become allies.

Agreed.

Hi Starkaryaetheon.....complicated

I am new to this forum too and I as well would believe that an ending where Sansa and Tyrion might stay together is entirely within the narrative logic of the books.

this would be an entirely free decision, of course, what else, they could always go separate ways if they want. But the story, meaning the author, might teach them to value and respect each other and to feel at home with each other, who knows. and this may be a version of bittersweet, though maybe more sweet than bitter.

after a short time of reading in these forums i have realised that there are some posters who dislike the idea of Sansa and Tyrion as couple in the end and that several posters dislike Tyrion general.But is this typical for fandom? not among the readers and show watchers I know and we are mostly female friends of ASOIAF. But then we are from Europe and no native speakers, would there be any cultural differences?

I

It isn't as much of a cultural difference as a very vocal group of fans on this site. Other sites have a much more balanced view of both Tyrion and Sansa acknowledging both the good and bad of each of them and therefore a more balanced view of the interaction between the two.

[Ours if the Fury]

Hi Starkaryaetheon.....complicated

I am new to this forum too and I as well would believe that an ending where Sansa and Tyrion might stay together is entirely within the narrative logic of the books.

this would be an entirely free decision, of course, what else, they could always go separate ways if they want. But the story, meaning the author, might teach them to value and respect each other and to feel at home with each other, who knows. and this may be a version of bittersweet, though maybe more sweet than bitter.

after a short time of reading in these forums i have realised that there are some posters who dislike the idea of Sansa and Tyrion as couple in the end and that several posters dislike Tyrion general.But is this typical for fandom? not among the readers and show watchers I know and we are mostly female friends of ASOIAF. But then we are from Europe and no native speakers, would there be any cultural differences?

I

Tyrion 'hate' or 'dislike' is a common occurrence in some cases in the forum. i like him but that doesnt mean everyone else has to like him, as most people seem to love brienne and catelyn yet i hate them…