Tyrion Lannister brought down by Sansa Stark.....

[juanml82]

If she had pushed Joffrey, she wouldn't be an observer for more than one book - because she would have been dead quickly after.

I'm not getting what your point is here? What are you arguing? That Sansa should be happy being the wife of a man who she doesn't love, who doesn't love her, and having regular sex with the rest of her life with a man who she finds completely sexually unattractive, in fact sexually repulsive? That she should lie back and think of Westeros? Or something... since I'm not sure why exactly she would even do it for "duty". To help a Lannister get the claim to Winterfell? Oh wait... you're saying she should lie back and think of his gold? Is that what you're saying?

There's no doubt that this would be profoundly unpleasant and soul-crushing for Sansa, who hasn't displayed any wish to have sex with people for gold. So if that's what you want for Tyrion, shouldn't you wish for him to find another Shae, who, unlike Sansa, could at least pretend to be attracted to him and would really like his gold?

Tyrion himself would like a woman who really loves him or at least wants him... and that's certainly not Sansa.

That's what expected of Westerosi noble ladies. Now, you could say it sucks for those poor lines in a sheet of paper and I agree. Westeros is an awful literary setting, and one of the reasons of it is that the fictional character of Sansa Stark was raised to do precisely that.

[Dicer]

If you can't see the difference between dismissing a person's opinion categorically and pointing out that said opinion is irrelevant in the context of a thread where it is completely off topic, then I'm not sure what to say.

The OP was talking about the 'Giant' prophecy and whether that Giant was Tyrion for Sansa. People have commented on several related issues with topics varying from marriage in Westeros to Walder Frey and Janos Slynt. That's generally how these threads seem to go with varied discussions. But my commenting on Sansa's attitude towards Tyrion and the Hound and a general comment on the difference in how fandom perceives it is somehow completely off topic and 'wildly irrelevant'. But whatever. :dunno:

Sansa never-once- thinks of Tyrion romatically or sexually, whereas the text is very clear about Sansa thinking of Sandor in these terms, which is why readers tend to view Sansa and the Hound as having chemistry while none exists between Sansa and Tyrion. So I'm not sure why it seems hypocritical on the part of readers who don't recognize Sansa's feelings toward Tyrion as of a romantic nature while seeing her thoughts of Sandor as being so.

Is anyone arguing that Sansa thinks of Tyrion that way? I don't think so. I have not seen anyone make the point that Sansa is having sexual fantasies about Tyrion while in the Vale.

The point of contention seems to be that Sansa still resents Tyrion for having married her against her will. I have seen people pointing to the 'Sansa thinks of Tyrion as kind' statement to indicate that she thinks more positively of Tyrion and is not holding a grudge. However much we may hate Tyrion for marrying Sansa, Sansa herself sees Tyrion's behavior towards her in a new and different light in the Vale. We may not think that Tyrion was kind to her, but Sansa does. And that's what is important. If we discount Sansa's positive attitude towards Tyrion because 'She does not know any better' then we should see her romantic/sexual feelings about the Hound in the same light.

No, she went down the list of places she could go. She thought of the two places she had lived. Winterfell was out, Kings Landing was out because they killed Tyrion and would do the same thing to her. Then she went right on to thinking about other places to go. Which is really interesting, because we see she thinks Tyrion is dead and there is no reaction to his death at all.

And why does she even think of going to King's Landing in the first place? If Tyrion was alive, she would have gone there as his wife. That's what she was thinking about. Fleeing the vale and going to KL as Tyrion's wife. But that option was out because Tyrion was dead and she would be killed as an accomplice. In fact she thinks of Tyrion as an option even over Jon Snow, her half brother who is alive on the wall and who she completely forgets about.

She thinks about a lot of deaths (Her siblings, her parents, her uncle) and has no reaction to any of them. She was just going down her list of choices one by one, not crying over dead people.

[butterbumps!]

The OP was talking about the 'Giant' prophecy and whether that Giant was Tyrion for Sansa. People have commented on several related issues with topics varying from marriage in Westeros to Walder Frey and Janos Slynt. That's generally how this threads seem to go But my commenting on Sansa's attitude towards Tyrion and the Hound and a general comment on the difference in how fandom perceives it is somehow completely off topic and 'wildly irrelevant'. :dunno:

Going back to your initial post, which you made in response to mine, the issue you were challenging was a "meta" issue of the fanbase, trying to call out the alleged hypocrisy of posters who are more amendable to SanSan than Tyrion-Sansa. At best, a careful analysis of the SanSan dynamic is wildly off topic for the scope of this thread; it's a relationship that evolves over 4 books, and such a discussion serves to complicate, rather than illuminate, this one. At its most problematic, your comment seemed less concerned with the comparison as it did in terms of calling out the supposed double standard as a comment on the fanbase.

I'm not looking to argue about this; I'm trying to move away from this and the comparison, which is why I'm not speaking much to the Sandor relationship. In general, though, I think the approach you're taking from these last few posts is more about which man Sansa should like, which I disagree with as a form of methodology in tackling the question.

Is anyone arguing that Sansa thinks of Tyrion that way? I don't think so. I have not seen anyone make the point that Sansa is having sexual fantasies about Tyrion while in the Vale.

The point of contention seems to be that Sansa still resents Tyrion for having married her against her will. I have seen people pointing to the 'Sansa thinks of Tyrion as kind' statement to indicate that she thinks more positively of Tyrion and is not holding a grudge. However much we may hate Tyrion for marrying Sansa, Sansa herself sees Tyrion's behavior towards her in a new and different light in the Vale. We may not think that Tyrion was kind to her, but Sansa does. And that's what is important. If we discount Sansa's positive attitude towards Tyrion as being 'She does not know any better' then we should see her feelings about the Hound in the same light.

Why isn't it both? She does seem to both resent Tyrion as part of her oppression, but neither does she villainize him for this or hold much of a personal grudge. She sees that he's not a bad person despite this, and seems to forgive him and find goodness in him. The text doesn't support a particularly positive view from Sansa to Tyrion-- it's more like indifference-to-gratefulness for the comparative kindnesses he showed, but it's hardly a resounding approval of him. I'm not sure we're really in much disagreement, or that all that much disagreement really exists in this thread.

[Le Cygne]

And why does she even think of going to King's Landing in the first place? If Tyrion was alive, she would have gone there as his wife. That's what she was thinking about. Fleeing the vale and going to KL as Tyrion's wife. But that option was out because Tyrion was dead and she would be killed as an accomplice. In fact she thinks of Tyrion as an option even over Jon Snow, her half brother who is alive on the wall and who she completely forgets about.

She thinks about a lot of deaths (Her siblings, her parents, her uncle) and has no reaction to any of them. She was just going down her list of choices one by one, not crying over dead people.

I don't know why you see that Sansa would ever want to be his wife again, it's not supported in the text.

It's one of the two places she's lived. She thinks of Winterfell. That's out. She thinks of Kings Landing. That's out (they'll do the same thing to her). She's 13, where is she supposed to think about going? So she thinks of some other places.

She thought Tyrion was dead the night of Blackwater, too, and had no response. She's responded quite a lot to the deaths of her family, however. If the Hound died, you bet there would be a response. She would mourn him. He's been in every Sansa chapter but one, often because she places him there in her thoughts.

That's what you're not seeing both of these times with Tyrion. Blackwater, she says, he's dead, they say. So she had heard that prior to saying that, and yet, nothing in the text. The other time, if I go to Kings Landing, my head will get chopped off like his. Nothing in the text. Nothing either time to show his death means anything to her.

I'll come up with a trivial example here, to show how great the contrast is in the text when she thinks about the Hound. She hears the washing women saying Kettleblack is younger and faster. She doesn't get the innuendo, she just thinks the Hound is being dissed, and defends him. If these Kettleblacks are so good, why haven't we heard anything about them before? There's quite a difference there in her emotional investment.

But also the story! He's writing a story for them. He's not writing a story for Tyrion and Sansa. Although he IS writing one for Tyrion and Tysha... That's where I think his story is headed.

[Annara Snow]

That's what expected of Westerosi noble ladies. Now, you could say it sucks for those poor lines in a sheet of paper and I agree. Westeros is an awful literary setting, and one of the reasons of it is that the fictional character of Sansa Stark was raised to do precisely that.

Great for her that she has seen how bullshit that is and rejected the idea of performing her "duty", and is growing into someone who wants to have sexual agency and dislikes the idea of being married for political reasons. Her arc is shaping up to be really great, and the plot of the forced marriage to Tyrion and her other unwanted betrothals, from Joffrey to SR to Harry, are being used so well by GRRM for Sansa's character development and growth beyond the conventional upbringing she was given by her septa.

It makes it all the weirder when some fans want this character development negated, and wish for GRRM to write a story that tells that women's desires don't matter. But whoever believes that this is what GRRM is doing is, I'm sure, very deluded.

[Dicer]

Going back to your initial post, which you made in response to mine, the issue you were challenging was a "meta" issue of the fanbase, trying to call out the alleged hypocrisy of posters who are more amendable to SanSan than Tyrion-Sansa. At best, a careful analysis of the SanSan dynamic is wildly off topic for the scope of this thread; it's a relationship that evolves over 4 books, and such a discussion serves to complicate, rather than illuminate, this one. At its most problematic, your comment seemed less concerned with the comparison as it did in terms of calling out the supposed double standard as a comment on the fanbase.

And I have pointed out several times that it was only my first couple of sentences in that post that were in response to a specific comment of yours and the rest were a general comment on the various topics I saw being discussed here. You chose to keep referring to my comments as being about 'sansan' and dismissing them as wildly irrelevant

I did not want to do deeper 'meta' analysis about 'sansan'. I was simply pointing out that while Sansa viewed both Tyrion and the Hound in a positive light when in the vale, some readers disregard her opinions about Tyrion in AFfC while highlighting her new feelings about the Hound as a sign that she loves him. While Sansa gets paired with the hound romantically, some readers expect her to continue resenting and hating Tyrion for what he did to her. I was not suggesting that Sansa is having or should be having romantic feelings towards Tyrion. She is clearly not sexually attracted to Tyrion. I was talking about Sansa seeing Tyrion as more than just a hated Lannister.

It was a comment about how Sansa's changing attitudes towards two characters (who have both mistreated her in the past) is perceived very differently in the fandom.

Why isn't it both? She does seem to both resent Tyrion as part of her oppression, but neither does she villainize him for this or hold much of a personal grudge. She sees that he's not a bad person despite this, and seems to forgive him and find goodness in him. The text doesn't support a particularly positive view from Sansa to Tyrion-- it's more like indifference-to-gratefulness for the comparative kindnesses he showed, but it's hardly a resounding approval of him. I'm not sure we're really in much disagreement, or that all that much disagreement really exists in this thread.

My point is that she resents Tyrion while she was in KL and I don't think she resents him anymore. She hated that she was forced to marry her enemy, she hated that she was forced to marry someone ugly and a dwarf. We see her anger against Tyrion in KL. But once she is in the Vale, we see that she thinks of him in a kinder way. She's not as harsh in her judgements. She can see that Tyrion could have just as easily slept with her. Even her aunt expects it of that marriage. Away from her imprisonment in KL and Tyrion, she appreciates that he was 'kind' in his own way.

No, we can't point to a particularly positive view of Tyrion from Sansa but neither can we point to a negative view. She does not think of Tyrion much in the Vale, but I don't think we see any continued resentment towards him in AFfC or when LF takes her away from KL. We do know that she thought that fleeing to KL if Tyrion was still alive would be a better option than being stuck in the Vale with Littlefinger.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

In a way, sansa already brought Tyrion down, inadvertently.

You can bet that if Sansa does anything significant, it will be inadvertent.

[Le Cygne]

My point is that she resents Tyrion while she was in KL and I don't think she resents him anymore. She hated that she was forced to marry her enemy, she hated that she was forced to marry someone ugly and a dwarf. We see her anger against Tyrion in KL. But once she is in the Vale, we see that she thinks of him in a kinder way. She's not as harsh in her judgements. She can see that Tyrion could have just as easily slept with her. Even her aunt expects it of that marriage. Away from her imprisonment in KL and Tyrion, she appreciates that he was 'kind' in his own way.

No, we can't point to a particularly positive view of Tyrion from Sansa but neither can we point to a negative view. She does not think of Tyrion much in the Vale, but I don't think we see any continued resentment towards him in AFfC or when LF takes her away from KL. We do know that she thought that fleeing to KL if Tyrion was still alive would be a better option than being stuck in the Vale with Littlefinger.

I see, she "appreciates" him now.

She was never attracted to him, but she has that right. Getting married is something she dreamed about all her life:

She had dreamed of her wedding a thousand times, and always she had pictured how her betrothed would stand behind her tall and strong, sweep the cloak of his protection over her shoulders, and tenderly kiss her cheek as he leaned forward to fasten the clasp.

Didn't turn out that way, did it? She had a right to be upset. Particularly under such hostile conditions involving danger to her loved ones. He could have allowed her a moment of rebellion, and not bitterly blamed a girl who could hardly see through her tears for an affront to his dignity.

And at the Vale, just days before she almost said he was kind not to rape her, she was very upset when thinking about the night he made her get naked and groped her, and said he told her a "Lannister lie" when he said he could be good to her. As for options, she thought Joffrey was preferable to Sweetrobin ("at least Joffrey was of sound body"). I don't think we are meant to read much into that, either, other than there's small choice in rotten apples.

Not seeing a change here. She was never "harsh in her judgements" any more than anyone else. She's always been remarkably polite, she still is. She always had reasons to be upset, she still does.

[Ser Not Appearing]

Does anyone know offhand - When did Tyrion start getting called the giant of Lannister as compared to when that prophecy occurred?

[Le Cygne]

Does anyone know offhand - When did Tyrion start getting called the giant of Lannister as compared to when that prophecy occurred?

Giant of Lannister from the start, AGOT. "And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow." was in ASOS.

[Muggle]

tyrion wants the west not the north....

[Le Cygne]

You can't always get what you want.

[Rara Avis]

He could have allowed her a moment of rebellion, and not bitterly blamed a girl who could hardly see through her tears for an affront to his dignity.

Then it wouldn't be Tyrion. Really, it's like his defining personality trait. When I clued in on this is when I began to find him pathetic.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I was responding to someone who indicated there was friendship, respect, and no hard feelings between Sansa and Tyrion, and I was showing that was not the case. But I'll answer your points.

He made a vow to return her, which he broke by not returning her. He forcibly married her, which Catelyn knew meant forcing her to bear his "vile children", that's why she called him a "faithless dwarf" (and Robb thought they would kill her):

I object to Tyrion focibly marrying her. Yes, Sansa was given no choice. But it was Cersei who threatened her, not Tyrion. Second, Tyrion was forced by his father to marry Sansa. After Tywin had announced his intent to Tyrion, he even says: "You will marry Sansa Stark, Tyrion. And soon." When looking at the context, it doesn't sound like Tyrion wants the marriage to me.

Also, what Catelyn and Robb think about the marriage doesn't matter a single bit. It's about Tyrions and Sansa's opinions of each other. It is completely irrelevant that Robb might suspect the Lannisters would kill Sansa.

The beatings took place while Tyrion was Hand of the King, he was aware of the way Joffrey treated Sansa prior to walking in on a public beating, and it was his duty to ensure the safety of his hostage, which he did not do.

The question is, did he know about it?

Breaking Jaime out would only diminish any semblance safety for Sansa, who was never safe at all. But Jaime was a prisoner of war, a commander taken on the battlefield, keeping Sansa hostage did not guarantee Jaime's safety.

Catelyn took a chance out of love, sending back a much more valuable prisoner. I don't want to debate if she was wise or not, but that's what one does if one is thinking about the welfare of another. Tyrion was thinking of Jaime, not Sansa.

Jaime's death would bring Sansa's chances of surviving the war to zero. And Jaime's position in Robb's camp was not a very good one.

And please, let's leave Catelyn's decision out of this. That is a discussion for another thread.

The part about not warning her about the marriage, that's absurd, being ambushed is the worst possible scenario. And it was certainly possible to escape from Kings Landing, because he escaped, and she escaped.

Of course it is possible to escape KL. I never said it wasn't. But Tyrion helping Sansa escape would be the same as signing Jaime's death sentence.

Tyrion sees the marriage through Tyrion's eyes, and that's the point. He never sees it through Sansa's eyes. Sansa is the one who was grievously wronged here. Tyrion agreed to marry her, read the chapter again. There was no force used with Tyrion (but there was with Sansa).

After all the refrences made about Tysha, do you really think there were no threats under there? Tyrion knows that marrying him, though very bad for Sansa, will be the best thing Tywin will offer for Sansa's well being.

You're turning one comment about one particular situation (not raping her) into a general remark that he was "kind" to her, which is not supported by all her other comments about him. And disregarding that she really reaches most times to come up with the most courteous spin on things, so for her to be bitter about him and the marriage at other times, speaks volumes.

Furthermore, as a reader, even to take this the way you are taking it, that she truly meant that he was kind not to rape her, even though she's having nightmares about it, seriously? Kind not to rape her? I don't think we are meant to see it that way.

I don't think you've made the case for respect, and there is much to contradict this. And you did not mention "hate" in your original post. If you had said they don't hate each other and may become allies some day, I'd have not responded. Hate is a strong word, and I'd characterize their feelings as disinterest if not for lingering feelings of bitterness. And allies, I don't see at all, she said she "hates" Lannisters and I see that conflict, Starks vs. Lannisters, as central to the plot. I don't think it's going to end with them all holding hands and singing Kumbaya.

I don't think it's irrelevant at all to the discussion of "Tyrion brought down by Sansa Stark" and it certainly shapes their thoughts about each other, which was more on the disinterested side prior to the marriage, and are now decidedly bitter.

It was kind of him not to rape her. It's Westeros, not the modern world we live in. Whether the girl wants the marriage or not, in Westeros, once the words have been said, the husband is allowed to sleep with his wife as often as he wants, whether she wants it or not. Tywin had commanded Tyrion to sleep with Sansa, and Tyrion was forced to obey. Yet he didn't, he promised Sansa not to touch her until she wanted him too, even accepting that she might never want him too.

You're not contextualising it within Westerosi culture. The majority of men would have consummated that marriage. Take Edmure for example. Most people see him as a pretty decent guy overall, if a bit of a doofus, but he also consummates his marriage with an incredibly distressed Roslin. Tyrion refusing to consummate the marriage was incredibly unusual within that culture so yes I don't think it's unusual that Sansa considers him kind because of that act. It's messed up by our standards, but Sansa isn't working within our standards.

I agree that there's feelings of bitterness about the marriage from both of them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they dislike one another. The bitterness is primarily not directed at each other imo, but at the marriage which was forced on both of them (Sansa to a much greater degree.). Is there any specific quote where Sansa blames Tyrion for the marriage (actual question)?

:agree:

OT: Roy Dotrice expects his copy by the middle of December (check my calendar: nearly there) he told us the day before yesterday. So maybe we'll get one some time in 2014. Just dreaming along.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHo_BqKbkCM

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100933-roy-dotrice-got-audiobook-narrator-says-george-r-r-martin-has-told-him-hes-got-another-book-nearly-ready/

I never understood from it that it meant by the middle of December. Where did you get that from? Or is that your own interpretation?

Because, you know, we've reached the middle of December about now :)

You don't need to quote the whole book, just the part where Sansa is forced to marry Tyrion. I guess at some point you will realize this, but I don't have time for it.

Again, Yes, Sansa is being forced. But so is Tyrion. And it is not Tyrion forcing Sansa to marry him. It's Cersei forcing Sansa because Tywin want's Cersei to force Sansa into the marriage.

Call me a troll for biting a flame: here is the entire quote you are referring to:

And there is no threat. Thanks for having me re-read the chapter 3 times today but please don't go on about a threat that's not in the book and tell you have no time to re-read it. Take it from me, no threat was made. Or go read it, please.

Heh, I re-read it too. No threat where I can find it.

here's the threat of force:

“Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same.” The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without, in the white scale armor of the Kingsguard. “Escort Lady Sansa to the sept,” she told them. “Carry her if you must, but try not to tear the gown, it was very costly.”

Sansa tried to run, but Cersei’s handmaid caught her before she’d gone a yard. Ser Meryn Trant gave her a look that made her cringe, but Kettleblack touched her almost gently and said, “Do as you’re told, sweetling, it won’t be so bad. Wolves are supposed to be brave, aren’t they?”

And, yet again, are there words comming from Tyrions mouth? No! This is not Tyrion threatening Sansa.

[butterbumps!]

And, yet again, are there words comming from Tyrions mouth? No! This is not Tyrion threatening Sansa.

I'm not sure what point you're making. Had anyone accused Tyrion directly of threatening Sansa with the force of the KG? There was an assertion that no threat was present in that chapter, so I provided evidence of threat to Sansa made by the Lannister corporation.

And btw, just because we see Cersei give the threat, it's actually Tywin behind it, not Cersei.

[The Mother of The Others]

Tyrion and Arya have the same problem---I want them to finish every plotline in every location and they can't be everywhere at once so they'll have to choose. Tryion would be great at KL if Cersei was still there, or if she and Jaime have retreated to the Rock he'd be great there for the siblings' final showdown as perhaps foreseen in Jaime's weir dream, and if Tyr has a dragon to hop from one location to another he'd be great making a reappearance in the Vale, landing atop the Eyrie for all to see and/or showing up at Winterfell to claim it via his marraige.

I believe the Highheart lady's visions have already come to pass. She saw Sansa living in the Vale and making it her own. Killing the doll giant means New Winterfell is wherever she hangs her hat and calls home. Alayne's agenda softly kills off Robert Arryn's as she rules through him, her Mummer's Tyke. This cuts out Baelish, too, as soon as she tells Arryn to parrot what she wants said instead of what Petyr requests. So in a sense the Braavosi Giant associated with Littlefinger has already fallen thanks to the events in that snow castle. (Pete wrapped around her finger when need be, and SweetRobin chastised into doing things Alayne's way).

[Le Cygne]

Then it wouldn't be Tyrion. Really, it's like his defining personality trait. When I clued in on this is when I began to find him pathetic.

Yep.

Tyrion's ghosts:

Instead he lay in the dark, staring up at the canopy and counting his ghosts. He saw Tysha smiling as she kissed him, saw Sansa naked and shivering in fear. He saw Joffrey clawing his throat, the blood running down his neck as his face turned black. He saw Cersei’s eyes, Bronn’s wolfish smile, Shae’s wicked grin. Even thought of Shae could not arouse him. He fondled himself, thinking that perhaps if he woke his cock and satisfied it, he might rest more easily afterward, but it was no good.

And he just keeps getting better:

“Was she your wife? She … she was very beautiful …”

And false. Sansa, Shae, all my women … Tysha was the only one who ever loved me. Where do whores go?

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Tyrion's ghosts:

Instead he lay in the dark, staring up at the canopy and counting his ghosts. He saw Tysha smiling as she kissed him, saw Sansa naked and shivering in fear. He saw Joffrey clawing his throat, the blood running down his neck as his face turned black. He saw Cersei’s eyes, Bronn’s wolfish smile, Shae’s wicked grin. Even thought of Shae could not arouse him. He fondled himself, thinking that perhaps if he woke his cock and satisfied it, he might rest more easily afterward, but it was no good.

First, to respond to the part of your post that you removed, although their marriage wasn't brokered in the usual way, EVERYONE sees no problem with the union and fully expects them to consummate the marriage. In no one's thoughts or comments, including Sansa's, does anyone say this is a travesty and her being in his bed is a crime against her. A poster already quoted Lysa's response to learning that Tyrion did not do his duty and asks if the dwarf was not capable. She's hardly a Lannister sympathizer and it sounds like she did not think it was wrong of Tyrion to sleep with her, so yes, Tyrion behaved very unusually here and showed Sansa kindness and mercy. There really is no way around that from a Westerosi perspective. Clearly from a modern persepective there is a completely different discussion but that does not change the fact that Tyrion acted well in this scene for a man of Westeros. That can't say for all his behavior but it can for this. Sansa thinks of him kindly and may well be because of this. We aren't really told why she thinks what she thinks.

Second, Tyrion is thinking of his ghosts but that hardly means he believes his behavior in these situations is what is haunting him. Instead, it seems to be a list of things that have touched him and left their mark: he sees Tysha but he loves her so why would he be haunted by her kiss? But perhaps he is haunted by his marrying her in the first place since it is that act that causes her rape. He sees Joff dying but he had nothing to do with it and no knowledge of it beforehand so he couldn't stop it. He sees his sister and his friend. He sees his lover and his wife. It is not clear why Tyrion feels these are his ghosts given what he is seeing and who.

[Sansa_Stark]

nvm

[Le Cygne]

Clearly from a modern persepective there is a completely different discussion but that does not change the fact that Tyrion acted well in this scene for a man of Westeros.

Seriously? I already quoted this upthread, but I'll quote it again, sure seems like Catelyn had a problem with it:

my daughter has been given to a faithless dwarf to bear his vile children

Robb:

"Arya’s gone, the same as Bran and Rickon, and they’ll kill Sansa too once the dwarf gets a child from her."

It's questioned here, too:

Vows said at swordpoint are not held to be valid...

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Customs