Tyrion Lannister brought down by Sansa Stark.....

[OberynBlackfyre]

Soo from yet another reread, I delved deep into looking for similarities in characters back stories, trying to place any of them in the yet to be determined myths and predictions. One thing that kind of struck me as odd was the wording of a prediction concerning Sansa.

"I see a pretty maiden killing a giant in a castle made of snow" - that is (not word for word) what the prediction states from the Ghost of High Heart. We of course do not know EXACTLY if the maiden she talks about is in fact Sansa, but Sansa seems to fit the bill pretty neatly.

Some (like myself) think that the prediction was merely the Ghost of High Heart seeing what would come to pass with Sansa and Robin, when he declared his doll a giant and began to trample her snow castle (which she called Winterfell, that was not to be missed!). She then promptly rips the doll, where Robin declares "she killed him." So we have a giant, we have a castle made of snow, and we have the giants death within the castle made of snow.

Then there is Littlefinger, whose fathers and families symbol is in fact the Titan of Braavos. Now, a close cousin, if not an exact synonym for a giant, is that of a Titan. Also given the seedy relationship that LF is now having with Sansa, many also predict that Sansa is going to be LF's downfall, whether at the actual castle in the Vale called "snow" or if they reach Winterfell. This would also fit neatly, as we have the maiden, we have a "giant" (LF) and the castle made of snow (either Snow-gate or WF)

However, when looking at the series, think there could be a third route. And though this may have been thought of before, I don't think many have applied Sansa bringing down Tyrion as part of the premonition had by the Ghost of High Heart. Who has been called a "giant" thoroughly throughout the series? Who keeps finding that word being a description of himself, by people both mocking and admiring? Also, who also has (by marriage) a certain amount of entitlement to the "castle made of snow" aka Winterfell.

I think it COULD be possible that Tyrion's POV gets a little darker than what was currently. Given how Tyrion has become, I think he could very possibly become a bloodthirsty man, lusting for power in order to avenge the wrongs done to him. This is already displayed by him having the dream in which he has two heads, one that is laughing and blissful while killing, the other crying. Also proved by the Black Flame seeing him in the flames, "snarling" in the middle of all the bloodshed. And also ***SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER FOR WINDS OF WINTER*** ****SPOILER*** during one of the samples chapters in which he asks that he be allowed to rape and kill his sister. ***SPOILER ENDED***

If Tyrion were to march back to Westeros, with some formidable power, he could very easily make himself a pain in the ass for Sansa, as through her he could claim power to the North. (not that the North would back him, but if he had Dany/ dragons, it COULD cause a problem) This could therefore put him in a conflict with his estranged wife, causing her to want to rid herself of him, and thus killing the proverbial "giant" of the story.

[Arya kiddin']

I always believed it was either Tyrion or Littlefinger. The idea that it is Sweetrobin's doll has no merit, literary or plot wise or otherwise. So yes it makes much sense. If Sansa challenges Dany's conquest while Tyrion is leading her forces (which I believe is the likely case); I can see Sansa bringing Tyrion down.

[protar]

I doubt it personally. You could hardly call them friends, but Sansa thinks well of Tyrion. all things considered. Even if Tyrion were to become darker than in DWD (Which I disagree with, I think he's clearly on the up since his last couple of Dance Chapters.) I really don't see him getting to the point where he's some power hungry megalomaniac who kidnaps Sansa for the North. He's already on his way to getting a golden ticket to claim Casterly Rock from Dany. Most likely both of them would agree to forget their marriage, which neither wanted (and by this point LF will probably have had the marriage annulled anyway for his schemes.).

[OberynBlackfyre]

I doubt it personally. You could hardly call them friends, but Sansa thinks well of Tyrion. all things considered. Even if Tyrion were to become darker than in DWD (Which I disagree with, I think he's clearly on the up since his last couple of Dance Chapters.) I really don't see him getting to the point where he's some power hungry megalomaniac who kidnaps Sansa for the North. He's already on his way to getting a golden ticket to claim Casterly Rock from Dany. Most likely both of them would agree to forget their marriage, which neither wanted (and by this point LF will probably have had the marriage annulled anyway for his schemes.).

mmmm I don't think he is going to straight up kidnap her, or necessarily be a blatant blood hungry person, but I think he will be like his father. Except for his treatment of Penny, Tyrions actions have been increasingly more erratic and terrifying. (especially with his treatment of the women he was with, where he used to be somewhat tender). That and with the betrayal of Jaime, he now KNOWS what he needs to do to secure power, and will not trust anyone.

And LF says nothing about getting it annulled, as when he talks to Sansa about it, he is counting on Tyrion being dead (or saying he is dead at least).

And this is of course not CERTAIN, it IS however a way for him to become a problem for Sansa.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I doubt it personally. You could hardly call them friends, but Sansa thinks well of Tyrion. all things considered. Even if Tyrion were to become darker than in DWD (Which I disagree with, I think he's clearly on the up since his last couple of Dance Chapters.) I really don't see him getting to the point where he's some power hungry megalomaniac who kidnaps Sansa for the North. He's already on his way to getting a golden ticket to claim Casterly Rock from Dany. Most likely both of them would agree to forget their marriage, which neither wanted (and by this point LF will probably have had the marriage annulled anyway for his schemes.).

Not well, not as such. Not wishing him dead either, but certainly not well. Honestly, how many people did Sansa wish death upon? Two? Three? Or just Joffrey alone?

[Nyrhex]

Tyrion cannot claim the North through Sansa. Thier marriage is illegal, and therfore he has no claim even as consort.

Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was explained as legal since at the time, Sansa was a ward of the crown, and her brother, the head of the family, was a traitor. Joffrey, acting as "the father of the realm", claimed to have the authority to choose who she will marry. Problem is, Joffrey is not the true king. Sansa was, as far as anyone knows, the head of house Stark. She was not a ward of the crown, since she was held by an userper, and not the lawful monarch. The marriage itself is illegal, since the monarch cannot order anyone who to marry unless they are under his/her legal guardainship, and since unconsummated, no faith can call it sealed.

Not that any of this matters if he plans to invade Westeros with an army of not-Vikings, not-slave-soldiers, dragons, and 514 of the most expensive sellswords in history...

[protar]

Not well, not as such. Not wishing him dead either, but certainly not well. Honestly, how many people did Sansa wish death upon? Two? Three? Or just Joffrey alone?

She thinks that he was kind to her in her second to last ASOS chapter when she's talking with Lysa. I think there's a fair bit of mutual respect there. Outside of an awkward marriage I could more easily see the two being allies than enemies.

mmmm I don't think he is going to straight up kidnap her, or necessarily be a blatant blood hungry person, but I think he will be like his father. Except for his treatment of Penny, Tyrions actions have been increasingly more erratic and terrifying. (especially with his treatment of the women he was with, where he used to be somewhat tender). That and with the betrayal of Jaime, he now KNOWS what he needs to do to secure power, and will not trust anyone.

And LF says nothing about getting it annulled, as when he talks to Sansa about it, he is counting on Tyrion being dead (or saying he is dead at least).

And this is of course not CERTAIN, it IS however a way for him to become a problem for Sansa.

I disagree. I think Tyrion continues to show compassion to Penny, Jorah and the Crew of the Shy Maid despite having varyingly serious grounds to dislike them (Penny tries to stab him, Jorah kidnaps him and Faegon's crew mostly treat him like dirt at first.).

I'm not saying Tyrion won't want power, but what he wants is Casterly Rock. His whole stance to potentially becoming Lord of Winterfell was pretty much "well I don't feel very good about it, but if I'm never getting CR..." Now that he will soon have a golden opportunity to seize CR he's not going to care about making a power grab for the North.

As to Sansa's marriage and LFs plans, the marriage is going to be set aside in some manner, whether it's by annulment or claimed widowhood. The end result is the same.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Tyrion cannot claim the North through Sansa. Thier marriage is illegal, and therfore he has no claim even as consort.

Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was explained as legal since at the time, Sansa was a ward of the crown, and her brother, the head of the family, was a traitor. Joffrey, acting as "the father of the realm", claimed to have the authority to choose who she will marry. Problem is, Joffrey is not the true king. Sansa was, as far as anyone knows, the head of house Stark. She was not a ward of the crown, since she was held by an userper, and not the lawful monarch. The marriage itself is illegal, since the monarch cannot order anyone who to marry unless they are under his/her legal guardainship, and since unconsummated, no faith can call it sealed.

Not that any of this matters if he plans to invade Westeros with an army of not-Vikings, not-slave-soldiers, dragons, and 514 of the most expensive sellswords in history...

well unless the marriage is set aside, he can still and TRY to say that he has a claim through their marriage. Sansa did her duty and she said the words in the marriage, I know that this was all done under duress, but she still consented (in loose terms) to the marriage.

The grounds of the marriage COULD be annulled, simply by the basis that it was never actually consummated. However it NEEDS to be annulled BEFORE he lands, or it doesn't matter what he said/she said, he can still TRY to claim the North in her name.

[OberynBlackfyre]

She thinks that he was kind to her in her second to last ASOS chapter when she's talking with Lysa. I think there's a fair bit of mutual respect there. Outside of an awkward marriage I could more easily see the two being allies than enemies.

I disagree. I think Tyrion continues to show compassion to Penny, Jorah and the Crew of the Shy Maid despite having varyingly serious grounds to dislike them (Penny tries to stab him, Jorah kidnaps him and Faegon's crew mostly treat him like dirt at first.).

I'm not saying Tyrion won't want power, but what he wants is Casterly Rock. His whole stance to potentially becoming Lord of Winterfell was pretty much "well I don't feel very good about it, but if I'm never getting CR..." Now that he will soon have a golden opportunity to seize CR he's not going to care about making a power grab for the North.

As to Sansa's marriage and LFs plans, the marriage is going to be set aside in some manner, whether it's by annulment or claimed widowhood. The end result is the same.

Yes, but these are people who deems as "friends". I am not saying Tyrion will become a blood thirsty monster to EVERYONE, but just that he will be very terrible to those he deems his enemy. Now he and Sansa were ok when they were together, but HIS thoughts of her are her poisoning Joff and then running off to gods know where, leaving him to take the blame and then be executed. Maybe he understood why she would do something like that, but I don't think that makes them allies at all, especially with the deep deep blood feud of their Houses.

I think they COULD be allies IF some circumstances come to pass, however I think it's equally possible they could become enemies.

[protar]

Yes, but these are people who deems as "friends". I am not saying Tyrion will become a blood thirsty monster to EVERYONE, but just that he will be very terrible to those he deems his enemy. Now he and Sansa were ok when they were together, but HIS thoughts of her are her poisoning Joff and then running off to gods know where, leaving him to take the blame and then be executed. Maybe he understood why she would do something like that, but I don't think that makes them allies at all, especially with the deep deep blood feud of their Houses.

I think they COULD be allies IF some circumstances come to pass, however I think it's equally possible they could become enemies.

Again, Tyrion's first impressions of these people are very negative. We're talking kidnapping, attempted murder and just all around disrespect. And yet Tyrion somehow managed to make friends with these people. Compared to him and Jorah, Tyrion and Sansa have a friendly rapport. So far as I'm aware Tyrion never has any hateful or even grudging thoughts towards Sansa. And nor does Sansa have any towards him.

And even if one they did dislike each other, it doesn't really change the fact that once he sides with Dany, Tyrion has no reason to try and claim the north so he's unlikely to come into conflict with Sansa because of that.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Yes, but these are people who deems as "friends". I am not saying Tyrion will become a blood thirsty monster to EVERYONE, but just that he will be very terrible to those he deems his enemy. Now he and Sansa were ok when they were together, but HIS thoughts of her are her poisoning Joff and then running off to gods know where, leaving him to take the blame and then be executed. Maybe he understood why she would do something like that, but I don't think that makes them allies at all, especially with the deep deep blood feud of their Houses.

I think they COULD be allies IF some circumstances come to pass, however I think it's equally possible they could become enemies.

The first time Tyrion thinks about Sansa after he has been imprisoned, he thinks to himself that she must have done it, for the cup had been placed right in front of her, and he had good reasons to want Joffrey death. The second time, he thinks to himself:

"Did Sansa Stark do it, then?" Lord Tyrell demanded.

I would have, if I’d been her.

To me, it seems that Tyrion suspects that Sansa had done it, but that she could not possibly have done it alone, since there was no way she could have gotten the poison. And, it seems, that Tyrion believes that if Sansa has indeed done the deed, he doesn't blame her for it. Had he been in her position, he would have done the exact same thing.

Yet even during his trial, whatever he might think about how much Sansa is involved, he protects her.

At this moment, neither one would want the other dead. Tyrion wouldn't want to murder a child, and Sansa, when remembering Tyrion after reaching the Vale, remembers how he was kind to her. They aren't enemies, but they aren't friends. Given the circumstances, they could be allies, especially if Tyrion offers to have their marriage annulled, since it is well known they haven't slept together yet. Tyrion wants the Rock, Winterfell and the North belong to Sansa. Tyrion has no desire for Winterfell. It was Tywin who wanted Tyrion to claim it, so House Lannister would become more powerful. That idea was Tywin's and Tywin's alone.

[juanml82]

Not well, not as such. Not wishing him dead either, but certainly not well. Honestly, how many people did Sansa wish death upon? Two? Three? Or just Joffrey alone?

Probably all the Freys when she told LF to give Harrenhall to them. It should add quite a lot of people to her list.

Too bad she doesn't pray like her sister, though.

Tyrion cannot claim the North through Sansa. Thier marriage is illegal, and therfore he has no claim even as consort.

Sansa's marriage to Tyrion was explained as legal since at the time, Sansa was a ward of the crown, and her brother, the head of the family, was a traitor. Joffrey, acting as "the father of the realm", claimed to have the authority to choose who she will marry. Problem is, Joffrey is not the true king. Sansa was, as far as anyone knows, the head of house Stark. She was not a ward of the crown, since she was held by an userper, and not the lawful monarch. The marriage itself is illegal, since the monarch cannot order anyone who to marry unless they are under his/her legal guardainship, and since unconsummated, no faith can call it sealed.

Not that any of this matters if he plans to invade Westeros with an army of not-Vikings, not-slave-soldiers, dragons, and 514 of the most expensive sellswords in history...

Not to derail the thread, but everyone in Westeros think the marriage is legal. It can also be annulled due non consummation, which is an easier and clearer path by the Westerosi, and not modern, laws and customs.

[protar]

Probably all the Freys when she told LF to give Harrenhall to them. It should add quite a lot of people to her list.

Too bad she doesn't pray like her sister, though.

Not to derail the thread, but everyone in Westeros think the marriage is legal. It can also be annulled due non consummation, which is an easier and clearer path by the Westerosi, and not modern, laws and customs.

The Lannisters declared it legal, but it's very very shaky to be honest. It was one step away from Sansa being forced to say the vows at sword point, the marriage was never consummated, both are now widely considered traitors who are missing or dead and Sansa's inheritance is too large to squander on Tyrion. Whoever makes the move of setting the marriage aside whether it's LF or Sansa and/or Tyrion themselves, they're going to have no problem doing so.

[juanml82]

The Lannisters declared it legal, but it's very very shaky to be honest. It was one step away from Sansa being forced to say the vows at sword point, the marriage was never consummated, both are now widely considered traitors who are missing or dead and Sansa's inheritance is too large to squander on Tyrion. Whoever makes the move of setting the marriage aside whether it's LF or Sansa and/or Tyrion themselves, they're going to have no problem doing so.

Sure, just not by claiming it wasn't legal to begin with. Walking that line would shake the power of too many Lords - think for instance in Doran Martell forcing Spotted Sylvia to marry against her will, or Walder Frey letting Robb, and later Roose, choose among all his daughters.

[protar]

Sure, just not by claiming it wasn't legal to begin with. Walking that line would shake the power of too many Lords - think for instance in Doran Martell forcing Spotted Sylvia to marry against her will, or Walder Frey letting Robb, and later Roose, choose among all his daughters.

Those marriages aren't really in the same circumstances as Sansa. Most arranged marriages are to some degree forced, especially for the women. Sansa and Tyrion's marriage was an extreme version of that given that Sansa was a captive with no choice but to marry or die. You could easily claim that the marriage was never legal in the first place.

[Queen Alienor]

I think it really depends on wether Tyrion presents himself as a threat to Sansa or her family when he arrives or not. If not, I don't see why they can't be allies, but if he does, even if it is a misunderstanding, I definitively see Sansa bringing him down. I don't want her too, I want the giant to be LF, but if Tyrion works for her enemies or tries to claim WF through her, than I think she would go against him (and bring him down easily, he's never been able to see what she thinks or plans).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ramsay Snow forced Lady Donella Hornwood to marry him. She was forced to say the words at sword-point. Yet once spoken, she could not take them back. After her death, due to the lack of heirs, Ramsay inherited the Hornwood estates, and is named Lord of the Hornwood on several occasions.

So their marriage was legal too.

Compared to Ramsay and Donella, the marriage of Tyrion and Sansa is more legal, since no one was holding a sword at Sansa's throat. She would have been threatened if she had refused, ah yes, certainly. But in the eyes of all those present, Sansa agreed to say the words - and so the marriage was legal.

If marriages are only legal when the woman actually wants to marry the man, we can question almost every marriage in Westeros. It's the fathers who usually pick the husbands for their daughters. It's the daughters who might not want to get married, but who have to do so anyway. Lysa did not want to marry Jon, but yet she did speak the words. Their marriage was legal.

Margaery and Joffrey spoke the words, but had not consumated their marriage yet. Still, Margaerys is Joffrey's widow, for their marriage was legal in every way. It's not that the bedding is necessary to make the wedding legal. That's only speaking the words. The bedding is only to make the marriage binding. A very important difference there.

[Sansa_Stark]

Tyrion cannot claim the North through Sansa. Thier marriage is illegal, and therfore he has no claim even as consort.

Power belongs where people think it belongs, and if people want to believe that Tyrion and Sansa's marriage is valid, I would say it absolutely can.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Ramsay Snow forced Lady Donella Hornwood to marry him. She was forced to say the words at sword-point. Yet once spoken, she could not take them back. After her death, due to the lack of heirs, Ramsay inherited the Hornwood estates, and is named Lord of the Hornwood on several occasions.

So their marriage was legal too.

The Lannister and Bolton power bloc names Ramsay heir to the Hornwood estates and Lord Hornwood. The Starks name him a wanted criminal to be killed on sight - and put quite some effort in achieving that.

[protar]

Ramsay Snow forced Lady Donella Hornwood to marry him. She was forced to say the words at sword-point. Yet once spoken, she could not take them back. After her death, due to the lack of heirs, Ramsay inherited the Hornwood estates, and is named Lord of the Hornwood on several occasions.

So their marriage was legal too.

No it wasn't. Ramsay used it as a thin pretext to claim the Hornwood lands, but vows made at sword point are not valid.