Tyrion Lannister brought down by Sansa Stark.....

[Zman1863]

Power belongs where people think it belongs, and if people want to believe that Tyrion and Sansa's marriage is valid, I would say it absolutely can.

That is the essence of it. From a legal standpoint there are probably grounds to set it aside based on lack of consent on Sansa's part, but the enforcement depends on who is in power.

No it wasn't. Ramsay used it as a thin pretext to claim the Hornwood lands, but vows made at sword point are not valid.

Under the Starks, Ramsay's marriage to Hornwood is illegal. Under the Boltons/Lannisters it is legal because the facts or its illegality are simply ignored. Throughout the books people talk about about supposedly deeply rooted legal principles. But the fact is that the rule of law doesn't exist in Westeros. The law is what the people in power want it to be. The same applies to Sansa's marriage to Tyrion. It will stand or fall based on the whims of those in power. At the end of ADWD an annulment is still impossible. But it might not be in the future.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I always believed it was either Tyrion or Littlefinger. The idea that it is Sweetrobin's doll has no merit, literary or plot wise or otherwise. So yes it makes much sense. If Sansa challenges Dany's conquest while Tyrion is leading her forces (which I believe is the likely case); I can see Sansa bringing Tyrion down.

I can think of two reasons for it to be the doll: 1) To answer the first part of the prophesy about the purple serpent hair. It was the same maid. 2) Martin changed his mind about something and wrote that scene at the Eyrie to close a hole. Tyrion and Littlefinger make the most sense. But it could be Robert Strong if she causes Sandor to put an end to his brother.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The Lannisters declared it legal, but it's very very shaky to be honest. It was one step away from Sansa being forced to say the vows at sword point, the marriage was never consummated, both are now widely considered traitors who are missing or dead and Sansa's inheritance is too large to squander on Tyrion. Whoever makes the move of setting the marriage aside whether it's LF or Sansa and/or Tyrion themselves, they're going to have no problem doing so.

The good folks in WF accepted The Bastard's marriage to Lady Donella.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

There's one small fly in the ointment of your theory, OP. Tyrion would have the devil of a time getting his hands on Winterfell and the North on his own behalf. That's one reason why Tywin was insisting on the marriage to Sansa being consummated. It was Tywin's plan that their son would be the nominal lord of Winterfell, while Tyrion ruled through him.

Simply being married to Sansa isn't really enough for him to stake a claim to the North. If he wants to try to do that when he comes back to Westeros, he's going to have to find Sansa first and get that marriage consummated.

[protar]

The good folks in WF accepted The Bastard's marriage to Lady Donella.

No they didn't, they sent Ser Rodrik to kill him and rescue Donella.

[juanml82]

The Lannister and Bolton power bloc names Ramsay heir to the Hornwood estates and Lord Hornwood. The Starks name him a wanted criminal to be killed on sight - and put quite some effort in achieving that.

Because he kidnapped her

[Lost Melnibonean]

No they didn't, they sent Ser Rodrik to kill him and rescue Donella.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

[Borsabil]

There's one small fly in the ointment of your theory, OP. Tyrion would have the devil of a time getting his hands on Winterfell and the North on his own behalf. That's one reason why Tywin was insisting on the marriage to Sansa being consummated. It was Tywin's plan that their son would be the nominal lord of Winterfell, while Tyrion ruled through him.

Simply being married to Sansa isn't really enough for him to stake a claim to the North. If he wants to try to do that when he comes back to Westeros, he's going to have to find Sansa first and get that marriage consummated.

Yeah and there's another tiny problem, Sansa isn't actually the heir to Winterfell. There are at least two, three if you count a boy about to turn into a tree, who have claims WAY better than hers from the simple fact that they're male and she isn't. I guess Tyrion could in theory take the North with Dany's dragons and then use Sansa to legitimize his claim in some way, but really why would he want to and why would Dany let him?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Yeah and there's another tiny problem, Sansa isn't actually the heir to Winterfell. There are at least two, three if you count a boy about to turn into a tree, who have claims WAY better than hers from the simple fact that they're male and she isn't. I guess Tyrion could in theory take the North with Dany's dragons and then use Sansa to legitimize his claim in some way, but really why would he want to and why would Dany let him?

Don't worry. His eye is fixed on Casterly Rock. Somebody has to betray her for gold...

[Lady Fevre Dream]

No they didn't, they sent Ser Rodrik to kill him and rescue Donella.

Once they thought Ramsey was dead, they unfortunately kept "Reek" prisoner, hoping his testimony COULD be used to invalidate the marriage. The Winterfell folks were at an impasse, waiting on Robb to be able to handle it, and well, the war and death and power shifts prevented it. IMO, that shows how uncertain that getting even these type of questionable marriages invalidated can be.

Ironically, it's Sansa's maidenhood that is, I think, the main card to play for a marriage annulment, or whatever they want to call it. Just imagine, LF HAS to keep his ass in line with her, just incase, that must be driving him BatShitCrazy, and I love it. That maidenhead is more important, to the marriage annulment, than all of LF's plots for various second husbands for the Little Bird.

Myself, I don't see Sansa and Tyrion being 'against' each other. I think they are both pretty clear on who each other is (even though Sansa SEEMS naive enough to believe LFs description of how Tyrion ended his first marriage), but in the long run, Sansa's main complaint of Tyrion is his last name. I don't see her holding that against him, she has bigger problems, and I agree, that SnowCastle scene could have covered the whole prophecy, or............it could still be that LF is the Giant, aka, TheTitan of Braavos.

[Newstar]

Although the issue is academic given that Sansa is not actually the heir to Winterfell, in between Bran and Rickon being alive and Robb's will, it's not true that Tyrion had no interest in Winterfell. He would much prefer Casterly Rock, but he seemed pleased enough with Winterfell as a consolation prize: the thought of being Lord Protector of Winterfell giving him a "queer chill," "I want Winterfell, yes, but I also want her," or whatever it was. With that said, I agree that he'll be far more interested in taking a run at Casterly Rock than in going after the North. I don't believe he even thinks of Winterfell in ADWD when brooding on his Westeros plans, and barely thinks of Sansa.

I can see Tyrion and Sansa clashing, but I see it more playing out in the Vale, with no reference to Sansa's (nonexistent) claim to the North:

1. Tyrion becomes one of Dany's allies

2. Dany orders Tyrion to conquer the Vale for her (a la Visenya on behalf of Aegon the Conqueror)

3. Tyrion leaps at the opportunity to take his revenge on the Vale for the events of AGOT (he once hoped to burn the Vale to the ground in AGOT as payback for what Lysa did to him)

4. Sansa ascends to a position of power or influence in the Vale, winds up opposing Tyrion in his bid to raze the Vale

See? Tyrion wishing to claim the North/Sansa's claim to the North doesn't even need enter into it for Tyrion and Sansa to clash (although Visenya got the Vale to fall in line through peaceful measures).

Even though it's possible for Tyrion and Sansa to come into conflict again, Tyrion and Sansa don't seem to have strong enough negative feelings about each other to suggest a battle royale is brewing (Tyrion/Cersei), and they don't have strong enough positive feelings about each other for one of GRRM's "loving relationship turned to bitter enmity" scenarios (Tyrion/Jaime, Cat/Brienne). So a big showdown between them, especially one resulting in Tyrion's death as predicted, would lack the dramatic punch of Tyrion vs. Cersei or Tyrion vs. Jaime, two final reckonings which seem pretty much guaranteed. Also, Tyrion's one of GRRM's "big three" with Jon and Dany; however he dies, it won't be at the hands of a character who's so relatively unimportant to him, about whom he doesn't feel terribly strongly, especially when there are several characters who are very important to him with whom a final clash is a foregone conclusion.

If we were going to see a big Tyrion/Sansa conflict resulting in Tyrion's death, I think ADWD and AFFC would have had a lot more of Tyrion planning revenge on Sansa, obsessing about Sansa and her supposed "betrayals," and Sansa worrying about Tyrion coming after her (much as Cersei is paranoid about Tyrion in AFFC). We saw nothing of that; Sansa is unconcerned that Tyrion is alive and in the wind, and Tyrion is consumed with an obsessive desire for revenge, but not against Sansa.

[protar]

I think that if Dany does land in the Vale (I think it'll be either that or Caterly Rock, or both.) then she'll manage to take it fairly peaceably like in Aegon's Conquest. The fact that Tyrion and Sansa know each other and were sort-of kind-of allies could help this.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I'm starting to think the betrayal for gold will be Tyrion for Casterly Rock.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

Sansa Stark doesn't bring people down. She just watches and thinks and cries.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I love the Tyrion to Sansa marriage. It is one of the best things that could have happened to them. Just they haven't realised it yet.

Reasons: A Lannister-Stark union is one of the best ideas to bestow peace between the West and the North and of course their Houses.

A reportedly good lover isn't the worst basis for a happy marriage either. Yes, with a beautifully handsome face would be even better, but nobody is getting everything they want - or else they get unhappy, too.

A sharp mind and a basically gentle heart should also make a good team, when they learn to talk un-armored (eanomarate? heheh).

A man that has recently set the foundation for the most modern bank on the planet will, given a little time and the chance to keep control of it, be out of financial trouble for the rest of his live. Good catch! Even to be "only" his spouse should spare you from ever being presented with a bill.

To Tyrion Sansa is all the purity he never had. Wonder if that makes any sense to him, at the least it arouses him.

The Wars of the Roses ended when a Tudor (Lancaster) marrying the York girl to become King and Queen.

"I see a pretty maiden killing a giant in a castle made of snow" -

[...] if the maiden she talks about is in fact Sansa, but Sansa seems to fit the bill pretty neatly.

Hmm, assuming Sansa to be the maiden, that feels quite right.
Tyrion is no giant. Shae calls him her Giant of Lannister, but that is tongue-in-cheek at first and refers to a special body part when she first uses the phrase on him. Or so I percieved it when I first read it.

The giant I would pretty much like that to be is "...a small man can cast a very large shadow". While Varys tells Tyrion, I understand he is again mocking him playing his game. The small man is Varys - to me. But there may be more candidates.

Leave the giant behind for some cracking thought: What castle is made of Snow? Did any famous northern bastards build any castles perchance? I don't remember if there were any though.

Don't worry. His eye is fixed on Casterly Rock. Somebody has to betray her for gold...

Well spotted, I like this!

I'm starting to think the betrayal for gold will be Tyrion for Casterly Rock.

...you were saying...

Sansa Stark doesn't bring people down. She just watches and thinks and cries.

She will develop, though. Please let her keep up the thinking. Crying is also one of the sanest reactions.

We'll have to wait for Winds of Winter to learn more.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Well spotted, I like this!

...you were saying...

I am also wondering whether Petyr could be the traitor for love. But I am thinking that is much less likely. Is Petyr even capable of love?

[ShadowCat Rivers]

If we were going to see a big Tyrion/Sansa conflict resulting in Tyrion's death, I think ADWD and AFFC would have had a lot more of Tyrion planning revenge on Sansa, obsessing about Sansa and her supposed "betrayals," and Sansa worrying about Tyrion coming after her (much as Cersei is paranoid about Tyrion in AFFC). We saw nothing of that; Sansa is unconcerned that Tyrion is alive and in the wind, and Tyrion is consumed with an obsessive desire for revenge, but not against Sansa.

This. It would be just too anticlimatic, for both characters. Sansa's "big kill" should be to bring down someone that she really, really hates, and Tyrion's demise should be something that completes his arc in a meaningfull way. Their feelings about each other are too "tepid" for a big showdown.

[Newstar]

The Wars of the Roses ended when a Tudor (Lancaster) marrying the York girl to become King and Queen.

Contrary to what "Lancaster" and "York" sounding like Lannister and Stark would imply, the Yorks are actually the Baratheons/Lannisters, and the Lancasters are the Targs (driven into exile, etc. etc.). "The York girl," Elizabeth of York, is much closer to Myrcella or Shireen than Sansa, since Henry Tudor married Elizabeth of York to cement his claim to the throne. Sansa Stark, unlike Myrcella and Shireen, has no claim to the Iron Throne. Assuming GRRM follows history, if there is a Henry Tudor figure in ASOIAF, it will be a Targ, not a Lannister. Odds are on Dany or Jon at the moment, as any of the Wars of the Roses threads on the boards will tell you.

This. It would be just too anticlimatic, for both characters. Sansa's "big kill" should be to bring down someone that she really, really hates, and Tyrion's demise should be something that completes his arc in a meaningfull way. Their feelings about each other are too "tepid" for a big showdown.

Exactly. Not enough feeling there on either side. If GRRM were heading in that direction, I think Tyrion and Sansa's POVs in AFFC/ADWD would have had a very different flavour.

Leave the giant behind for some cracking thought: What castle is made of Snow?

Given that winter is here, and that the prophecies were not precisely literal (the serpents in Sansa's hair being the poisonous stones), any castle where snow winds up falling could be a "castle made of snow."

[Annara Snow]

I love the Tyrion to Sansa marriage. It is one of the best things that could have happened to them. Just they haven't realised it yet.

Reasons: A Lannister-Stark union is one of the best ideas to bestow peace between the West and the North and of course their Houses.

A reportedly good lover isn't the worst basis for a happy marriage either. Yes, with a beautifully handsome face would be even better, but nobody is getting everything they want - or else they get unhappy, too.

A sharp mind and a basically gentle heart should also make a good team, when they learn to talk un-armored (eanomarate? heheh).

A man that has recently set the foundation for the most modern bank on the planet will, given a little time and the chance to keep control of it, be out of financial trouble for the rest of his live. Good catch! Even to be "only" his spouse should spare you from ever being presented with a bill.

To Tyrion Sansa is all the purity he never had. Wonder if that makes any sense to him, at the least it arouses him.

The Wars of the Roses ended when a Tudor (Lancaster) marrying the York girl to become King and Queen.

Um, first off, a reportedly good lover according to whom? Secondly, even if he were, which there is no evidence whatsoever for (all we get from his POV sex scenes is that Shae was a good lover, and Tyrion sometimes finished prematurely), what does it matter when Sansa feels completely physically/sexually repulsed by him? Why the heck would anyone want to have sex with someone who sexually repulses them? It's not even a question of getting a "beautiful/handsome face" - Sandor certainly doesn't have one, and she's still sexually attracted to him.

I guarantee that you wouldn't be suggesting the same if the roles were reversed. Why doesn't anyone suggest that Tyrion should have sex with Lollys, a woman who physically repulses him to the point he says he'd rather have his cock cut off and fed to the goats than marry her? For all you know, she may turn out to be a good lover if he gave her a chance... :rolleyes:

Secondly, the main thing Sansa wants in a marriage is love, and someone who loves her for herself rather than her claim. So she should be happy with someone who doesn't love her and has little interest in her as a person, other than for her claim to Winterfell and the North? Brilliant.

If your argument is that she should marry for gold, maybe you're picking a wrong bride for Tyrion? There are lots of them who would have him for gold; Sansa is not one of them.

And you want Tyrion to be married to a woman who finds him sexually repulsive and doesn't want him in her bed. That's not what he wants, either. Sansa is "purity he never had"? God, your arguments just get worse and worse. He did have purity, BTW, when he was 13. So, they would be a good couple because she would be his replacement for Tysha? Even though, unlike Tysha, Sansa feels no sexual desire or romantic love for him. And if she married him for gold and politics, as you suggest she should, she would not be "pure" anymore. So, your arguments even contradict themselves.

Really, what you're suggesting is the worst of all bad ideas ever suggested. :bang:

The only way I could see Sansa and Tyrion deciding to remain "married" would be if it's a marriage in name only, where they don't live together, never have sex with each other, and are free to sleep with and have kids whoever else they want. So, if that can work, then maybe, and only then, I could see them remaining "married".

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I am also wondering whether Petyr could be the traitor for love. But I am thinking that is much less likely. Is Petyr even capable of love?

He's most certainly capable of obsession. Love though... Not so sure. But he might see his obsession as love. As in his love for Catelyn eventually turned into an obsession.

That Tyrion would be the betrayel for gold (though I hope it won't be true...), that is a nice one. Hadn't considered that before :)

Although the issue is academic given that Sansa is not actually the heir to Winterfell, in between Bran and Rickon being alive and Robb's will, it's not true that Tyrion had no interest in Winterfell. He would much prefer Casterly Rock, but he seemed pleased enough with Winterfell as a consolation prize: the thought of being Lord Protector of Winterfell giving him a "queer chill," "I want Winterfell, yes, but I also want her," or whatever it was. With that said, I agree that he'll be far more interested in taking a run at Casterly Rock than in going after the North. I don't believe he even thinks of Winterfell in ADWD when brooding on his Westeros plans, and barely thinks of Sansa.

I can see Tyrion and Sansa clashing, but I see it more playing out in the Vale, with no reference to Sansa's (nonexistent) claim to the North:

1. Tyrion becomes one of Dany's allies

2. Dany orders Tyrion to conquer the Vale for her (a la Visenya on behalf of Aegon the Conqueror)

3. Tyrion leaps at the opportunity to take his revenge on the Vale for the events of AGOT (he once hoped to burn the Vale to the ground in AGOT as payback for what Lysa did to him)

4. Sansa ascends to a position of power or influence in the Vale, winds up opposing Tyrion in his bid to raze the Vale

See? Tyrion wishing to claim the North/Sansa's claim to the North doesn't even need enter into it for Tyrion and Sansa to clash (although Visenya got the Vale to fall in line through peaceful measures).

Even though it's possible for Tyrion and Sansa to come into conflict again, Tyrion and Sansa don't seem to have strong enough negative feelings about each other to suggest a battle royale is brewing (Tyrion/Cersei), and they don't have strong enough positive feelings about each other for one of GRRM's "loving relationship turned to bitter enmity" scenarios (Tyrion/Jaime, Cat/Brienne). So a big showdown between them, especially one resulting in Tyrion's death as predicted, would lack the dramatic punch of Tyrion vs. Cersei or Tyrion vs. Jaime, two final reckonings which seem pretty much guaranteed. Also, Tyrion's one of GRRM's "big three" with Jon and Dany; however he dies, it won't be at the hands of a character who's so relatively unimportant to him, about whom he doesn't feel terribly strongly, especially when there are several characters who are very important to him with whom a final clash is a foregone conclusion.

If we were going to see a big Tyrion/Sansa conflict resulting in Tyrion's death, I think ADWD and AFFC would have had a lot more of Tyrion planning revenge on Sansa, obsessing about Sansa and her supposed "betrayals," and Sansa worrying about Tyrion coming after her (much as Cersei is paranoid about Tyrion in AFFC). We saw nothing of that; Sansa is unconcerned that Tyrion is alive and in the wind, and Tyrion is consumed with an obsessive desire for revenge, but not against Sansa.

Tyrion wanted to burn the Vale down as revenge against Lysa. Assuming that Sweetrobin won't live much longer (for LF's plans to work, Sweetrobin has to die), there will be no one left for Tyrion to punish, so burning the Eyrie would serve little purpose for him, now wouldn't it? If you were to say that Tyrion would kill LF (who had set him up with the dagger in the beginning), that might eventually lead to Sansa being free from manipulation, and her relationship with Tyrion might actually become one where they will no longer have to hide behind curtesies. Perhaps after such an event, they might actually be capable of having a normal conversation. This could lead to a friendship, and with Sansa in Winterfell (either as the ruling Lady or as regent until Rickon comes of age, assuming Rickon is reinstalled by Davos and Manderly) and Tyrion in Casterly Rock, this would finally mean peace between the North and the Westerlands.