Tyrion Lannister brought down by Sansa Stark.....

[butterbumps!]

We know that Lysa Arryn expected Tyrion to sleep with his wife. And when Sansa indicated otherwise, she wondered if the dwarf was incapable. So a Tully and a Arryn thinks that it was normal for Tyrion to bed his wife.

Other than that we have only Dany as an example and of course Drogo gave her no choice in the matter there.

Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things if Sansa's marriage was arranged by the enemy rather than her family? Arya may have had to marry Walder Frey's 22nd son, Elmer Frey when she was older. What if she was repulsed by Elmer Frey and did not want to sleep with him but Elmer Frey exercised his rights as husband? Her situation would have been no different to Sansa's. Was Lysa Arryn's life any happier because her father forced her to have an abortion and marry an older man so that he could win a war? Dany had no say in the matter either when her brother sold her to Drogo.

I also don't understand folks who dislike Tyrion because he married her against her wished and then ship Sansa with the Hound. The Hound who hacked down a small child and then joked about it. The Hound who massacred loyal Stark men including Jeyne Poole's father and assisted in taking down Ned in KL. Who assisted in holding Sansa captive and terrorized her by holding a knife to her throat.

But apparently when Sansa calls Tyrion 'kind' we are not meant to take it that way because Sansa really hates him in reality. On the other hand Sansa imagining kisses from the hound is oh so romantic!

First and foremost, what does SanSan have to do with this? Your last two paragraphs are wildly irrelevant.

Secondly, I'm not sure what you're truly disagreeing with in terms of my post. In case this wasn't worded clearly enough from my second paragraph, I spoke to the fact that with Tywin as the groom's father, the expectation for consummation would exist-- as in, with Tywin behind, enforcing this, I think most people would have expected the groom to go through with it.

What I'm less convinced of is whether it is "normal" for any man in Westeros to go through with bedding an obviously unwilling partner as Protar was suggesting. We have indications that such behavior is seen as abhorrent. My point was that I simply do not believe we can make categorical statements about norms of behavior to this end, though I tend to think that cases of clear duress and unwillingness are not regarded well.

There is some degree of difference in the way Sansa's marriage was arranged versus others, but that's not really the point I was making. My post addressed the issue of comparison to the RW as being simply irrelevant-- that is, the RW is so exceptional a circumstance that it doesn't stand as a point of comparison for assessing "norms" as it was being used as.

[Dicer]

Only my first sentence was addressing the comment you made. The rest was my general opinion on the matter and some double standards I have noticed with respect to Tyrion and the Hound. That was not addressing anything you stated. Just a general comment.

With respect to my comment addressing yours, I was stating that Lysa Arryn considered it a 'normal' state of affairs for Tyrion to have slept with his wife. From what I understand from her comments to Sansa, she did not think it abhorrent or out of order if Tyrion had slept with Sansa. In fact Tyrion's behavior seems so strange that she immediately thinks that Tyrion is incapable. Which was the attitude of the folks of KL who worked in the Keep and Tyrion thought that they were making fun of him for not sleeping with his wife.

[Le Cygne]

Oh right, you didn't put that quote into context so I couldn't remember where exactly it was from. Friendly rapport was a joke by the way. Anyway, without being able to look up quotes I'm out. Though I stand by my main point that Sansa and Tyrion are more likely to work as allies than to be enemies.

But the books aren't actually setting anything up there. Both are bitter about what the other has done. She calls him a liar. He calls her false. This is an author who sets things up.

the quoted passage may imply that Sansa was threatened with force into a marriage with Tyrion (or not).

To clarify: Cersei certainly tells Sansa she has no choice but to marry Tyrion and this time for once she does it matter-of-factly and without actually threatening her.

Certainly Tyrion doesn't threaten her. On the contrary he brusquely dismisses his cousin King Joff to have a short talk with Sansa, asking her if she wants to opt out and he will make that happen. Sansa choses not to, and to go on with the ceremony.

Sansa was threatened explicitly with the Kingsguard who had been beating her relentlessly. She tried to run away. She said she promised to obey. Tyrion married her under threat of force. He commanded her to take off her clothes. She kept giving him a chance to say no, and he said do it. She was clearly repulsed and afraid and he said they were going to have sex anyway. These were commands she was obeying UNTIL he decided she didn't have to. The decision was his. And he knew Lancel was not an option but a ruse, and noted this clearly during the chapter when Tywin and Kevan were persuading him to go along with the marriage. Whether Sansa saw through the Lancel at the last minute ruse or not, she had no choice but to marry a Lannister. She said she wanted no Lannister. She cried during the ceremony so much she could barely see. She refused to kneel for Tyrion's cloak. She made it very clear she did not want this marriage. Sansa was forced to marry Tyrion, and everyone knew it.

[butterbumps!]

Only my first sentence was addressing the comment you made. The rest was my general opinion on the matter and some double standards I have noticed with respect to Tyrion and the Hound. That was not addressing anything you stated. Just a general comment.

With respect to my comment addressing yours, I was stating that Lysa Arryn considered it a normal state of affairs for Tyrion to have slept with his wife. From what I understand , she did not think it abhorrent if Tyrion had slept with Sansa. In fact Tyrion's behavior seems so strange that she immediately thinks that Tyrion is incapable. Which was the attitude of the folks of KL who worked in the Keep and Tyrion thought that they were making fun of him for not sleeping with his wife.

Lysa is hardly the gold standard of Westerosi opinions of norms. I agree that she expected Tyrion to claim his rights, but there is still the issue of Tywin behind this that influences expectation in the case of Tyrion particularly. That Tywin is the groom's father renders this issue a bit more loaded and complicated-- Tywin, known for prodigious brutality and enforcement, puts some additional imperative on the groom's situation in this case, and doesn't really speak to more categorical norms of society.

Even if your SanSan comments were not in reference to mine, they are still wildly irrelevant to this thread, which doesn't ask if Sansa will bring down Sandor, or discuss that dynamic in any capacity.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Hey @Dicer, I agree with you. Just wanted to pick two near-invisible nits, you may safely ignore me.

[...] and of course Drogo gave her no choice in the matter there.

[...] Tyrion because he married her as her enemy

Firstly, book Drogo does not rape Dany in their marriage night. He uses his only Westerosi word "No," to -I think- inquire his way with her and she is never refusing him, but at last answering "Yes" to him. No hurting her is mentioned, actually it says literally: soft at first and than "harder, but he never hurt her." Call that one rape if you like.
Later marital sex is not fulfilling her but actually hurting her, yes, that is mentioned, but it is not rape if she isn't actually refusing it, not even in thought or dream. At least in my understanding. I'm no Dothraki...

It is the HBO Drogo and Dany who made it a rape-like scene instead. Even if we are told Dothraki are rapists and we look at Dany and see she is not enjoying the happenings on screen, she endures them. She is neither fighting nor arguing with Drogo... all the way to Vaes Dothrak if I remember that one correctly.

ETA: (just learned something new) the other nitbit: Tyrion is not an explicit enemy - at least he does not act or talk that way. To Sansa, do we ever learn of her thoughts before the marriage chapter?

[Dicer]

Even if your SanSan comments were not in reference to mine, they are still wildly irrelevant to this thread, which doesn't ask if Sansa will bring down Sandor, or discuss that dynamic in any capacity.

Why is it wildly irrelevant when I am making a comparison between two characters who have treated Sansa in a similar manner and the way fandom treats both of them? It's still relevant to how a Sansa in the future sees both these men who have held her against her wishes. If we are going to be that strict about sticking to the topic, then we should not even be discussing about whether Tyrion was wrong in the way he treated Sansa or how society sees the Sansa-Tyrion marriage.

Later marital sex is not fulfilling her but actually hurting her, yes, that is mentioned, but it is not rape if she isn't actually refusing it, not even in thought or dream. At least in my understanding. I'm no Dothraki...

Yes, but Dany did not have the power to refuse even if she wanted to. That's what makes it rape to me.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Hey @Le Cygne,

But the books aren't actually setting anything up there. [...] Sansa was threatened explicitly with the Kingsguard who had been beating her relentlessly. She tried to run away. She said she promised to obey. Tyrion married her under threat of force.

It is no shame to stand wronged, but instead of having me quote half the Sansa chapter to show you what isn't there, I'd prefer to ask you to kindly take it up with the book Storm of Swords around pp. 382-384. Cite the threat if you can find it.

[Le Cygne]

I also don't understand folks who dislike Tyrion because he married her as her enemy and then pair Sansa with the Hound.

What does Sansa's feelings for Sandor have to do with this thread? Apart from the obvious contrast between the way SANSA feels about the two men, which is remarkably different. If you truly want to know why readers pair Sansa with the Hound, it's because SANSA pairs herself with the Hound. There's a long, four book story being told about Sansa and the Hound, and one would have to look at that in context to see why she does this.

[Le Cygne]

It is no shame to stand wronged, but instead of having me quote half the Sansa chapter to show you what isn't there, I'd prefer to ask you to kindly take it up with the book Storm of Swords around pp. 382-384. Cite the threat if you can find it.

You don't need to quote the whole book, just the part where Sansa is forced to marry Tyrion. I guess at some point you will realize this, but I don't have time for it.

[butterbumps!]

Why is wildly irrelevant when I making a comparison between two characters who have treated Sansa in similar manner and the way fandom treats both of them? It's still relevant to how a Sansa in the future sees both these men who have both held her against her wishes. If we are going to be that strict about sticking to the topic, then we should not even be discussing about whether Tyrion was wrong in the way he treated Sansa or how society sees the Sansa-Tyrion marriage.

Because the way you posed it was rather disingenuous, and as such, had the appearance of trying to provoke a fight rather than a genuine discussion point:

I also don't understand folks who dislike Tyrion because he married her as her enemy and then pair Sansa with the Hound. The Hound who hacked down a fleeing child and then joked about it. The Hound who massacred loyal Stark men including Jeyne Poole's father and assisted in taking down Ned in KL. Who assisted in holding Sansa captive and terrorized her by holding a knife to her throat. The Hound did more harm to the Starks than Tyrion.

But apparently when Sansa calls Tyrion 'kind' we are not meant to take it that way because Sansa hates him in reality. On the other hand Sansa imagining kisses from the hound is oh so romantic!

The way you brought it up points out cherry-picked non sequitors and takes a highly dismissive, confrontational tone.

If discussing this as a comparison is a genuine interest, then I think it boils down to this:

No matter how you might feel about Tyrion or Sandor as individuals, or what you believe about the level of their individual crimes, the fact remains that for Sansa Tyrion is a reflection of her oppression and is not her preferred choice of partner whereas Sandor is someone Sansa has interest in. Sansa doesn't hate Tyrion, but put simply, he's not her choice and there is no chemistry there. On the other hand, Sandor does evoke feelings in Sansa, and therefore, acceptance of SanSan is based on respect for Sansa's exercising her will.

ETA-- I hasten to add that this does not pertain to this thread.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

You don't need to quote the whole book, just the part where Sansa is forced to marry Tyrion. I guess at some point you will realize this, but I don't have time for it.

Call me a troll for biting a flame: here is the entire quote you are referring to:

And there is no threat. Thanks for having me re-read the chapter 3 times today but please don't go on about a threat that's not in the book and tell you have no time to re-read it. Take it from me, no threat was made. Or go read it, please.

[butterbumps!]

Call me a troll for biting a flame: here is the entire quote you are referring to:

And there is no threat. Thanks for having me re-read the chapter 3 times today but please don't go on about a threat that's not in the book and tell you have no time to re-read it. Take it from me, no threat was made. Or go read it, please.

here's the threat of force:

“Of course we can. You may come along quietly and say your vows as befits a lady, or you may struggle and scream and make a spectacle for the stableboys to titter over, but you will end up wedded and bedded all the same.” The queen opened the door. Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Osmund Kettleblack were waiting without, in the white scale armor of the Kingsguard. “Escort Lady Sansa to the sept,” she told them. “Carry her if you must, but try not to tear the gown, it was very costly.”

Sansa tried to run, but Cersei’s handmaid caught her before she’d gone a yard. Ser Meryn Trant gave her a look that made her cringe, but Kettleblack touched her almost gently and said, “Do as you’re told, sweetling, it won’t be so bad. Wolves are supposed to be brave, aren’t they?”

[Dicer]

Because the way you posed it was rather disingenuous, and as such, had the appearance of trying to provoke a fight rather than a genuine discussion point:

The way you brought it up points out cherry-picked non sequitors and takes a highly dismissive, confrontational tone.

If discussing this as a comparison is a genuine interest, then I think it boils down to this:

No matter how you might feel about Tyrion or Sandor as individuals, or what you believe about the level of their individual crimes, the fact remains that for Sansa Tyrion is a reflection of her oppression and is not her preferred choice of partner whereas Sandor is someone Sansa has interest in. Sansa doesn't hate Tyrion, but put simply, he's not her choice and there is no chemistry there. On the other hand, Sandor does evoke feelings in Sansa, and therefore, acceptance of SanSan is based on respect for Sansa's exercising her will.

ETA-- I hasten to add that this does not pertain to this thread.

So my opinion is 'wildly irrelevant' because in your opinion I was looking for a fight? I don't mind discussing the point civilly but you are the person being confrontational here when

1) my general comments were not addressed to you (As I made clear above) and

2) I noticed that both Tyrion and the Hound have behaved in a similar fashion with Sansa. Sansa has had bad experiences with both of them. The Hound was as much an enemy of the Starks as was Tyrion. The Hound took part in holding her captive similar to Tyrion. The Hound frightened and terrorized her just like Tyrion's sexual advances repulsed her. But later she thinks of Tyrion as 'kind' and imagines kisses with the Hound. It seems to indicate that Sansa is either suffering from some form of Stockholm syndrome type of feelings for both characters or she is not the type of person to hold a grudge.

3) I was observing that despite the similarities between Tyrion and the Hound, a number of fans like the Hound and Sansa together. She imagines the kiss, she observes that Tyrion is kind. But Sansa's views on Tyrion are being viewed as false. I see this as a double standard of sorts and was pointing that out. I think that being in the vale, Sansa is seeing things differently for whatever reason and when she sees Tyrion as kind, she actually means it. She does not hold any long held resentments against Tyrion as of now.

4) We are not talking about partners here and whether Sansa is attracted to Tyrion. We are talking about how Sansa sees Tyrion as a person. The fact remains that Sansa appreciated that Tyrion refrained from exercising his rights. This is stated in the text. If we are going to consider that Sansa is feeling something for the Hound (someone who has mistreated her before) then we should equally consider that Sansa does not hold too much of a grudge against Tyrion either. To negate her statement to Lysa about Tyrion while giving importance to her attraction to the Hound is a double standard.

[Sansa_Stark]

SanSan has always been weird for me.

People love that pairing, but call out Pedofinger.

I mean, shouldn't people have a problem with Sandor for being a pedo?

@dicer

[butterbumps!]

So my opinion is 'wildly irrelevant' because in your opinion I was looking for a fight? I don't mind discussing the point civilly but you are the person being confrontational here when

Dicer, I did not dismiss your opinion. I said this particular opinion was irrelevant to the thread. I pointed out that your comments about this have the appearance of disingenuous baiting because the topic of SanSan is a non sequitor in terms of this thread, and the way you broached the subject seemed a bit purposely loaded-- listing out Tyrion and Sandor's respective crimes has nothing to do with the root of the difference in their relationships, as it's the way Sansa personally feels that's the issue.

1) my general comments were not addressed to you (As I made clear above) and

2) I noticed that both Tyrion and the Hound have behaved in a similar fashion with Sansa. Sansa has had bad experiences with both of them. The Hound was as much an enemy of the Starks as was Tyrion. The Hound took part in holding her captive similar to Tyrion. The Hound frightened and terrorized her just like Tyrion's sexual advances repulsed her. But later she thinks of Tyrion as 'kind' and imagines kisses with the Hound. It seems to indicate that Sansa is either suffering from some form of Stockholm syndrome type of feelings for both characters or she is not the type of person to hold a grudge.

3) I was observing that despite the similarities between Tyrion and the Hound, a number of fans like the Hound and Sansa together. She imagines the kiss, she observes that Tyrion is kind. But Sansa's views on Tyrion are being viewed as false. I see this as a double standard of sorts and was pointing that out. I think that being in the vale, Sansa is seeing things differently for whatever reason and when she sees Tyrion as kind, she actually means it. She does not hold any long held resentments against Tyrion as of now.

I'm not sure I understand in what way Sandor held Sansa captive in the way Tyrion/ the Lannisters did. I also do not understand how Sansa's feelings toward either man translates to Stockholm-- Sansa is grateful for Tyrion's comparative gentleness and Sandor is the object of her sexual awakening. Further, in general, Sansa is a character with a vast capacity to forgive and see goodness in people-- she can't even bring herself to hate Marillion after the rape attempt, and has to remind herself of his crimes.

I don't think anyone is invalidating Sansa's views on Tyrion as false. When Sansa's views on Tyrion are being used to suggest she could have romantic feelings for him, or that these two should resume their marriage, that's where the disagreement lies. I think it's rather clear that she does not hate him, but in terms of respecting what Sansa wants, this is not Tyrion as any type of consort. Nor does Tyrion particularly want her in this context. I can see an argument for these two forming some detached, political alliance, but in terms of anything romantic, neither Sansa nor Tyrion's thoughts point in this direction. Which is not the case for SanSan, but that isn't really part of the scope of this thread, and a bit of a derail.

ETA: word choice issue.

[Le Cygne]

I noticed that both Tyrion and the Hound have behaved in a similar fashion with Sansa. Sansa has had bad experiences with both of them. The Hound was as much an enemy of the Starks as was Tyrion. The Hound took part in holding her captive similar to Tyrion. The Hound frightened and terrorized her just like Tyrion's sexual advances repulsed her. But later she thinks of Tyrion as 'kind' and imagines kisses with the Hound. It seems to indicate that Sansa is either suffering from some form of Stockholm syndrome type of feelings for both characters or she is not the type of person to hold a grudge.

But they haven't "behaved in a similar fashion." Nor does she see her experiences with the two men in the same way. You want to make this about the other posters instead of about Sansa. Talk about the story.

It's about how Sansa sees the experiences. She calls Tyrion "no friend" and sees this was a "mockery of a marriage" she was glad to escape (and was willing to risk death to do so). She tells us the wedding night with Tyrion weighs heavily upon her. She has nightmares about it. When he told her he could be good to her, she calls that a Lannister lie. And goes on to think of Sandor as the one who was her friend, the one who warned her about lies, and wonders where he is.

Contrast her thoughts of Tyrion to "I wish the Hound were here" and keeping his bloody cloak with her and pretending they kissed. When she reflects back on the night Sandor was traumatized by the fire (which was during yet another rescue attempt, he didn't want to leave her alone with the Lannisters), she said she understood what was upsetting him, the fire. She has a long, four book story with Sandor, she sees the relationship in context, which is what most book readers do.

Sandor did not hold Sansa captive. Tyrion most certainly did as Hand of the King. And certainly when he forcibly married her. By contrast, Sandor tried for a long time to protect her while she was in captivity, and when he had to leave (because Tyrion sent him out into the fire!), and couldn't bear what they were doing to her anymore ("no one would hurt you again") he offered to take her with him. He saved her life twice, and was trying to do so again.

I was observing that despite the similarities between Tyrion and the Hound, a number of fans like the Hound and Sansa together. She imagines the kiss, she observes that Tyrion is kind. But Sansa's views on Tyrion are being viewed as false. I see this as a double standard of sorts and was pointing that out. I think that being in the vale, Sansa is seeing things differently for whatever reason and when she sees Tyrion as kind, she actually means it. She does not hold any long held resentments against Tyrion as of now.

Again, this is about what SANSA thinks and instead you are making it about "fans." Most Sansa fans want what Sansa wants. And no one is seeing her views about Tyrion as false, we're just not dismissing them. And we're not dismissing his views about her, either, he's bitter and calls her "false."

[Annara Snow]

I'm sure she will, and will eventually do something. It would just be poor storytelling if she remained an observer and pawn through seven books. But we have no evidence that she is the type to take any action thus far, save that moment on the battlements when she almost grabbed Joff and jumped to their deaths. She should've done that, and I would respect her as a character much more.

If she had pushed Joffrey, she wouldn't be an observer for more than one book - because she would have been dead quickly after.

Hey @Annara Snow!

Truly, it's according to Tyrion himself. That doesn't count I admit.

Good question.

I did not notice that.

Just when I thought I'd lose all of the argument. Why not? How come you guarantee? This is rather strange.

Because there is no gain in it. Neither physical attraction nor gain as in children he wanted, a title, castle, retainers or new alliances that would further his cause.

Sansa would get nearly all that, except, as you note, the first one.

Now does she? Sansa lives in her bookish knight-and-lady-story like dreams. Should she marry Brienne then, who lives her dreams? Does Sansa actually know any other love than that of her parents and some human kindness? In the latter, Tyrion has so far proven to be closest.

Whether Tyrion knows about love as you will be asking below... same thing. He knows about human kindness and has practised a growing love with Shae for a while (and Tysha).

And Tyrion tells us he gives a damn about Winterfell, it is the Rock that has to be his.

I love that angry little headbanger^^^!

Who cares for "all the gold in Casterly Rock" - not Sansa. And not Tyrion either. Tyrion unknowingly created gold on drugs, as he has just created a pile of new paper money and written deeds. Wait what that turns out to be. It's crazy innovative and powerful. I, at least, couldn't help but feel impressed.

They are there already. It will take enormous effort to change that. So you could remain right.

As funny as it is though, marriages serve quite a lot more than providing a frame around a sexual relation. And many don't even do that. And pregnancies where "the culprits" find each other quite repulsive happen all the time. I wish I knew why. Maybe it is mother nature's way of saying "and you think you are sapient?"

Thanks for taking your time for the elaborate argument.

I'm not getting what your point is here? What are you arguing? That Sansa should be happy being the wife of a man who she doesn't love, who doesn't love her, and having regular sex with the rest of her life with a man who she finds completely sexually unattractive, in fact sexually repulsive? That she should lie back and think of Westeros? Or something... since I'm not sure why exactly she would even do it for "duty". To help a Lannister get the claim to Winterfell? Oh wait... you're saying she should lie back and think of his gold? Is that what you're saying?

There's no doubt that this would be profoundly unpleasant and soul-crushing for Sansa, who hasn't displayed any wish to have sex with people for gold. So if that's what you want for Tyrion, shouldn't you wish for him to find another Shae, who, unlike Sansa, could at least pretend to be attracted to him and would really like his gold?

Tyrion himself would like a woman who really loves him or at least wants him... and that's certainly not Sansa.

You didn't notice Sansa's attraction to Sandor? Read her POV chapters. Though I guess you seem to think that it's irrelevant who Sansa finds attractive or not, since you seem to think she should lie back and think of Tyrion's gold, or whatever. I'm sorry, but the fact is that actual marriage includes sex - and I have to tell you that women care about this thing called sex, too. It's actually important to us who we will or won't have sex with, whether we feel attracted to them and whether we want sex with them or not. Have you ever met someone you may consider nice and may have some friendly feelings for, but who utterly sexually repulses you? If you have, then you should be aware of the fact that this is not something people can simply "get over" or "overcome" in order to have sex with them and enjoy it - even if we accept the ludicrous premise that people are somehow obliged to find someone attractive or that they should have sex with people they don't want to have sex with.

So, you're saying Tyrion should have married Lollys if he stood to gain something material from it? Well, at least I know where you stand. Obviously, our views are too different to ever see eye to eye. But even so, if Sansa entirely changed her personality, as you seem to want her to, and decided that all that mattered in marriage is gold and lands and that being a golddigger is the way to go, why would she go for Tyrion? LF is offering her Harry the Heir, and may want to marry her after that himself. Why wouldn't this New and Improved Golddiggin' Sansa agree to have LF off SR, marry handsome Harry, or eventually marry (or just fuck) LF, certainly a powerful man?

Oh, wait, you did say something about 'kindness'. Let's see:

"Now does she? Sansa lives in her bookish knight-and-lady-story like dreams. Should she marry Brienne then, who lives her dreams? Does Sansa actually know any other love than that of her parents and some human kindness? In the latter, Tyrion has so far proven to be closest.

Whether Tyrion knows about love as you will be asking below... same thing. He knows about human kindness and has practised a growing love with Shae for a while (and Tysha)."

Tyrion murdered Shae, so that's not a good argument by any means! The idea that "kindness" equals love or is enough for marriage is ludicrous. But what does Tyrion know about love, indeed? Apart from Tysha, a whirlwind romance he had when he was 13, a woman he hasn't seen in over a decade, very little. He knows almost nothing about human kindness. Few people have been kind to him, and he has become too bitter to be kind to people anymore. He hates his whole family now, even the brother he used to love and who loved him. Unlike Sansa, who had a loving family, and who is thinking lovingly about her dead and still living family members now.

Or are you talking about the kindness shown to others? In that case, Sansa knows a lot about kindness. She's shown kindness to quite a few people - Dontos, Sandor, Lancel, the women and children assembled during the Blackwater battle, Sweetrobin...

Should Sansa marry Brienne? Well, according to your arguments about "kindness", she definitely should! :D Brienne is a much kinder person than Tyrion, and the majority of people Sansa has ever met. Now, the facts that neither of them are sexually attracted to women, and that they are instead attracted to/in love with certain men, is something I would see as an insurmountable problem. But you wouldn't, right? Since you seem to be arguing that romantic love and sexual desire are irrelevant in marriage... If Sansa can lie back and think of Tyrion's "kindness", then by the same logic she and Brienne can both think about each other's kindness, if that's all it takes. :P

Hi Starkaryaetheon.....complicated

I am new to this forum too and I as well would believe that an ending where Sansa and Tyrion might stay together is entirely within the narrative logic of the books.

this would be an entirely free decision, of course, what else, they could always go separate ways if they want. But the story, meaning the author, might teach them to value and respect each other and to feel at home with each other, who knows. and this may be a version of bittersweet, though maybe more sweet than bitter.

after a short time of reading in these forums i have realised that there are some posters who dislike the idea of Sansa and Tyrion as couple in the end and that several posters dislike Tyrion general.But is this typical for fandom? not among the readers and show watchers I know and we are mostly female friends of ASOIAF. But then we are from Europe and no native speakers, would there be any cultural differences?

I

I am from Europe and I'm not a native speaker of English, and I really don't see how that makes a difference. I am not aware of any place in Europe where people think that love is irrelevant when it comes to marriage, that female sexual desire is irrelevant when it comes to sex, and that it's a great and logical idea to have two people remain in a marriage that neither of them wanted and that the woman was forced into, despite the fact that they don't love each other and that the female feels no sexual attraction to the male whatsoever.

You only found out that people disliked Sansa and Tyrion as a 'couple' when you came to this forum?! Seriously?!

And please don't try to make it look as if disliking this 'pairing' is about 'hating Tyrion'. Tyrion is one of my favorite characters in ASOIAF. But why on Earth would anyone think that he and Sansa are a good 'couple' or that they should stay together? Why?

I agree that there's feelings of bitterness about the marriage from both of them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they dislike one another. The bitterness is primarily not directed at each other imo, but at the marriage which was forced on both of them (Sansa to a much greater degree.). Is there any specific quote where Sansa blames Tyrion for the marriage (actual question)?

We are not discussing here how we as modern readers would perceive it if in a wanted or unwanted marriage the husband coerces the wife to sleep with him and worse, if the woman is still a child: as rape.

We are discussing how Sansa sees it. And Sansa was thoroughly unwilling to sleep with Tyrion, yet she was willing to go through with the procedure like through a visit to her dentist: awful but inevitable. She had been brainwashed by that patriarchial system of forced and arranged marriages to see it as her duty to go along with her own abuse. "She did not know what was expected of her. Should she open her legs for him?" So heartbreaking, Sansa seeing it as her wifely duty to agree to her own humiliation. She never expected Tyrion to refrain from consummation. And given this in-story ideological background Tyrion indeed seemed to have been kind to her. In her eyes he did not refrain from sexually abusing a child but from sparing her the unwanted consummation.

So, yes, he did the unexpected: to be kind.

Sansa does not have our insight in womens' and childrens' rights, she thinks in patterns of her time, the child wants to emulate being a good wife, a lady who knows her duties. This is her upbringing, her own septa teaching her hugely misogynistic worldviews and ideals. Reactionary only for our time but the norm in her world even if we see women rebelling and finding their own standards.

Yet in Sansa's eyes Tyrion had been kind at that moment. And by now Tyrion does not know if Sansa poisoned Joffrey, yet he was not willing to implicate her in the trial. While Sansa has reason to believe that Tyrion is innocent and that it was not him who drew her into the murder. No, based on past events Sansa would not have a reason to kill Tyrion and I do not see them directly threatening each other. If a conflict might occur in case Tyrion attacks the Vale and Sansa happens to be there we will see. And so far Sansa is not the person to solve marital problems by murder, divorce Italian style, if she is not violently threatened. Assuming that Tyrion would not try to get free of this marriage in a murderous manner either.

I agree that Sansa does not have particularly negative feelings about Tyrion - they're neutral and often slanting towards positive. She thought of him positively in ACOK and prayed for him, in addition to Sandor and Dontos as one of the people she saw as being kind to her in KL - although she wasn't able to trust him, after her experiences with other Lannisters. She hated the forced marriage, but her feelings for Tyrion were not hateful - she didn't trust him, and she greatly disliked having to be his "wife" even without sex, but she felt somewhat sorry for him ("He is as terrified as I am", "He is like a hungry child and I have no food to give him") and did think he was "kind" to her afterwards.

I agree that it's about context: today we wouldn't be thinking that a guy is kind for not performing marital rape, but in Westeros, Sansa was aware that many men would, and after having been a helpless hostage and exposed to people like Joffrey, she appreciated every bit of kindness she got.

But I agree with Newstar that Sansa and Tyrion are mostly indifferent to each other, with no strong feelings on either side. They are unlikely to even become great enemies. I think they could be allies, or not, depending on the circumstances. Or they could end up not having much to do with each other at all. Sansa would have no problem with Tyrion, as long as she's not being forced to be his wife, and I can't see Tyrion coming back with some big revenge against Sansa in mind, or wanting to force his marriage rights or claims on her.

[Dicer]

SanSan has always been weird for me.

People love that pairing, but call out Pedofinger.

I mean, shouldn't people have a problem with Sandor for being a pedo?

@dicer

I would rather not address this here as it would be wildly irrelevant :)

Dicer, I did not dismiss your opinion. I said this particular opinion was irrelevant to the thread. I pointed out that your comments about this have the appearance of disingenuous baiting because the topic of SanSan is a non sequitor in terms of this thread, and the way you broached the subject seemed a bit purposely obtuse-- listing out Tyrion and Sandor's respective crimes has nothing to do with the root of the difference in their relationships, as it's the way Sansa personally feels that's the issue.

I'm not sure I understand in what way Sandor held Sansa captive in the way Tyrion/ the Lannisters did. I also do not understand how Sansa's feelings toward either man translates to Stockholm-- Sansa is grateful for Tyrion's comparative gentleness and Sandor is the object of her sexual awakening. Further, in general, Sansa is a character with a vast capacity to forgive and see goodness in people-- she can't even bring herself to hate Marillion after the rape attempt, and has to remind herself of his crimes.

I don't think anyone is invalidating Sansa's views on Tyrion as false. When Sansa's views on Tyrion are being used to suggest she could have romantic feelings for him, or that these two should resume their marriage, that's where the disagreement lies. I think it's rather clear that she does not hate him, but in terms of respecting what Sansa wants, this is not Tyrion as any type of consort. Nor does Tyrion particularly want her in this context. I can see an argument for these two forming some detached, political alliance, but in terms of anything romantic, neither Sansa nor Tyrion's thoughts point in this direction. Which is not the case for SanSan, but that isn't really part of the scope of this thread, and a bit of a derail.

Well, calling my opinion irrelevant is one way of dismissing it, don't you think?

I was also not talking about sansan, whatever that is. I was talking about Sansa's personal feelings about the two characters as well. She has positive thoughts about both of them in the vale. What I was pointing out (As I have already mentioned several times) was that while Sansa's views about the Hound are seen as some kind of romantic feelings, her positive thoughts about Tyrion are negated as her not really feeling that way about him. I am pointing out that just as Sansa sees the Hound differently in the Vale, she also sees Tyrion in a much kinder light.

In AFfC, she thinks that she would flee to Tyrion if she had the chance and if he were alive. She thinks that her aunt held no favor for Tyrion which seemed to imply that she felt differently.

Regarding Sandor:

Sandor was part of the KG that guarded her and escorted her to and fro. He was a Lannister man who took down her father's men in KL. He was partly responsible for Sansa being trapped in KL. How is that not holding her captive against her wishes? She was as much his prisoner as she was Tyrion's. Does it matter if he was paid to do what he did while Tyrion did what he did because of his name? If he was truly looking out for her, why not help her escape? If he truly hated his job and holding her against her wishes, why not leave his job (As he did later on when it affected him personally). He did offer at the very end, when he was leaving. And Sansa was rightly scared of him and refused. Why not offer to help her leave before Blackwater or during Blackwater (Before the whole being scared of fire issue)? In my opinion, Tyrion has been looking out for Sansa as much as the Hound.

I am not sure how much I want to talk about Sansa and the Hound since you consider all that wildly irrelevant. But I will make a quick comment about them. I do think that Sansa's attraction towards the Hound is a kind of Stockholm syndrome. He was part of the guard that prevented her escape, massacred her father's men (Men that she grew up knowing including Jeyne's father and maybe even the Septon). He held a knife to her neck and terrorized her. And handed out tidbits of kindness to her when Joffrey orders a beating. I can see why Sansa might think that what she is feeling for the Hound is the real deal and not an effect of all the trauma she has experienced. Just my opinion.

[butterbumps!]

Well, calling my opinion irrelevant is one way of dismissing it, don't you think?

If you can't see the difference between dismissing a person's opinion categorically and pointing out that said opinion is irrelevant in the context of a thread where it is completely off topic, then I'm not sure what to say.

To the rest of your points, on the topic of whether Sansa has positive thoughts on Tyrion, yes, she does, and I don't think anyone actually disagrees that she doesn't hate him. She recognizes that while he was part of the group that oppressed her, he behaved decently, even kind in comparison, and she doesn't wish him harm.

Sansa never-once- thinks of Tyrion romatically or sexually, whereas the text is very clear about Sansa thinking of Sandor in these terms, which is why readers tend to view Sansa and the Hound as having chemistry while none exists between Sansa and Tyrion. So I'm not sure why it seems hypocritical on the part of readers who don't recognize Sansa's feelings toward Tyrion as of a romantic nature while seeing her thoughts of Sandor as being so.

[Le Cygne]

In AFfC, she thinks that she would flee to Tyrion if she had the chance and if he were alive. She thinks better of him than her aunt. She thinks that her aunt held no favor for Tyrion which seemed to imply that she felt differently.

No, she went down the list of places she could go. She thought of the two places she had lived. Winterfell was out, Kings Landing was out because they killed Tyrion and would do the same thing to her. Then she went right on to thinking about other places to go. Which is really interesting, because we see she thinks Tyrion is dead and there is no reaction to his death at all.

As for your take on Sandor, one, it's not relevant to this thread, two, you're not basing this on how SANSA sees Sandor, except to dismiss her feelings as "Stockholm Syndrome" - and you're not making a good case for that at all.