Stannis Baratheon: Worst Human Rights Abuser in Westeros?

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

The Anti-Stans seem to be running out of ideas.

Agreed. Whats next? Stannis is the ultimate villain and he has planned the annihilation of westeros, by allowing Others to invade.

[Alistair's Pantaloons]

What is power?

If one can convince others that making negative comments about men is only sexist if there is power behind, isn't that power itself?

If men make negative comments about women, do you automatically label it sexism because of a supposed "power difference?"

I would imagine, the fact that you can get away with a sexist sig, while men would generally get lambasted for making a similar comment, is power itself.

Sexism is sexism. Don't try to bring this power balance argument into this.

:agree:

There will always be perceived power imbalances in the world, real or imagined, and it will not always be someone's fault.

[The Lord's Kiss]

Shucks love, Renly declared before Stannis, while Joff was next in line-he was stealing from his nephew, not his brother.

Besides Stannis'd be a terrible king and you know that.

I don't think Renly declaring himself king before Stannis trumps any future claim his older brother would make towards that same Iron Throne. This is where medieval law is tricky, I think, with claims, and men making law work to their own ends, and it filters down to even the legitimization of bastards, which is of course solidified by everyone's favorite punching bag, Jon Snow.

And this.

The whole premise of this thread is just wrong on a number of levels.

First, that he's the worst - there are about a dozen characters who are just awful; Tywin, Cersei, Gregor, Amory Lorch, The Tickler, Vargo Hoat, Qyburn,...

Second, that the people of Westeros even have human rights for anyone to abuse. It's a monarchy, and all a monarch is is a hereditary tyrant.

That said, the sun doesn't exactly shine out of Stannis Baratheon's ass either, as some on this forum would have you believe.

I think it would be fairer to place him somewhere in the middle ground.

ETA: I'm still pulling for Edric Storm! I think Gendry's doomed, though, I don't know why.

[King Hammer]

Interesting thread, but I think some of the issues raised are more applicable to every single Westerosi ruler than a specific characteristic of Stannis. Is there anyone in power in Westeros who stands for freedom of speech in any way? A few rulers might be too lazy to kill people for speaking out of turn, but I think they're the exception that proves the rule. The same goes for cruel and unusual punishment (cutting out tongues and removing hands) as well as an anti-gay agenda.

I do think the repression of freedom of religion and executions without trial are a very disturbing trend that Stannis seems to follow, though. Though to be honest most trials in Westeros seem to be complete shams.

[Éadaoin]

What is power?

If one can convince others that making negative comments about men is only sexist if there is power behind, isn't that power itself?

If men make negative comments about women, do you automatically label it sexism because of a supposed "power difference?"

I would imagine, the fact that you can get away with a sexist sig, while men would generally get lambasted for making a similar comment, is power itself.

Sexism is sexism. Don't try to bring this power balance argument into this.

lol yikes, I'll try to make this brief- the place to discuss this thoroughly is probably Genchat, where all of the gender/feminism threads are. But by power I was referring more to institutionalized power. I tend to believe that this general definition of sexism = prejudice + institutionalized power is actually pretty sturdy (and useful), despite the fact that I think it has its limitations. (and this isn't a way to excuse women from their prejudices, imo.)

But if you don't believe that things like male privilege even exist, then you clearly won't agree with this definition, and one obvious reason I suspect that us arguing about any of this is doomed to endless circles from the start is because we evidently don't even seem to agree on the basic definition of sexism. (Though my initial usage of the word "power" was so vague as to be useless- i should have specified.)

tbh this is a complicated subject that I probably can't do any sort of justice in an already fairly ridiculous Stannis thread (it would just get locked for being so off topic). If you really wanted to discuss it further, I could PM you.

[Ours if the Fury]

This is just another Stan pan… but everyone is in titled to their opinion, in war the king gets the say, in society if you don't reward and punish alike, the people think u weak… he can't win either way…

[Blutraven]

If Stannis was a shining paragon of perfection, he wouldn't be such a brilliant character.

[EstEst]

<snip>

1. Executions without trial:

2. Cruel and unusual punishment:

3. Freedom of religion:

4. Freedom of speech:

5. Anti-gay agenda:

I would agree with #2, and #5 is debatable, but all the other points seem wrong to me.

#1) Stannis, being a lord in a feudal society, has all the rights to rule his people as he declares right; but he's the only one (except Ned and perhaps a few other lords) who tries to maintain justice on a wide scale. At least as much justice as he can maintain among the war. He punishes only those whose guilt either obvious or self-confirmed. If any, I'd say he is inconsistent in that he tends to forgive some crimes deserving punishment in his own legal scale. It may be unfair towards the others, but it's humanly understandable and appealing to me as a reader, since it tells me Stannis is not a cruel fanatic.

#3) The other religions are not forbidden in Stannis' army. Kings Men openly worship the Seven, and while at the Wall Stannis shows tolerance towards Jon Snow and wildlings' worship of the Old Gods. That's not religios fanatism, it's more reminiscent of a result of election: one party gets a majority in the power structure and the minor parties have the rest. Only in this case the major party was not elected, it was selected by the tyrant. So, religious feelings were clearly abused in the process of establishing of the official State Religion, but they're not abused now.

#4) Alester Florent was (1) not killed but executed, and (2) not for exercising the right of speach per se, but for the attempt of making the deal with the Lannisters (with whom his lord is in the state of war). He spoke as the official person, he was given the power to speak for his lord, so in addition to the right of speach he also had the huge responsibility for what exactly he speaks. That was Florent who abused the right of speach, not Stannis.

Actually, as a lot of people posted in other threads, Stannis does listen to others, (Davos and Jon Snow, for some), in contrast to most other lords. Perhaps it's the answer to the accusation of being the oppressor of the right of speach.

As a whole, of course the Westeros society is horrible for people, but Stannis is not the worst abuser of civil rights. I think he's one of the few lords who tries to change it in the right direction.

[Rashtibram]

Anti-Stannis fans keep trying to explain what I don't think can be explained easily: why is Stannis so unlikeable? I find it immensely perplexing that Stannis inspires this kind of devoted, hardcore fandom in people. When I read the books, he came off as a harsh, dogmatic, jerk of a character, and I had him pegged as a villain until I came to this website, where I discovered that a "Stannis-fan" was actually a thing. When I went back to reason my dislike of Stannis, I couldn't really support my position. I think his affinity with Melisandre, so obviously an antagonistic character, casts him in an unfavorable light, and his rigid sense of justice in the face of more moral judgement is off-putting, but ultimately I can't justify what's so wrong with him; he's an honest lord attempting to claim his birthright, a little whiny perhaps, but ultimately in the right. There's nothing in his actions or his motives which is inherently wrong, as so many anti-Stannis fans keep trying to argue.

[Arya kiddin']

Thanks, I appreciate it. Though that specific line was E-Ro's doing, to be fair. I have to give credit where credit is due.

Haha. Well honestly, that disclaimer is gold. :lol:

[Ours if the Fury]

Agreed. Whats next? Stannis is the ultimate villain and he has planned the annihilation of westeros, by allowing Others to invade.

It wouldn't be ridiculous seeing the panning he gets…

[E-Ro]

Haha. Well honestly, that disclaimer is gold. :lol:

Yeah the best part of this thread comes from me. Your welcome. When I was informed this thread was being made I commanded that she stop. When that didn't work I pleaded. And when she refused my best efforts on both fronts I figured I at least deserved a disclaimer for me and the Stan Stan's.

lol yikes, I'll try to make this brief- the place to discuss this thoroughly is probably Genchat, where all of the gender/feminism threads are. But by power I was referring more to institutionalized power. I tend to believe that this general definition of sexism = prejudice + institutionalized power is actually pretty sturdy (and useful), despite the fact that I think it has its limitations. (and this isn't a way to excuse women from their prejudices, imo.)

But if you don't believe that things like male privilege even exist, then you clearly won't agree with this definition, and one obvious reason I suspect that us arguing about any of this is doomed to endless circles from the start is because we evidently don't even seem to agree on the basic definition of sexism. (Though my initial usage of the word "power" was so vague as to be useless- i should have specified.)

tbh this is a complicated subject that I probably can't do any sort of justice in an already fairly ridiculous Stannis thread (it would just get locked for being so off topic). If you really wanted to discuss it further, I could PM you.

The sig is sexist. Sorry.

[I am of the Night]

Stannis Baratheon: Worst Human Rights Abuser in Westeros?

Seriously? Ever heard if the Iron Born. They are practically slavers.

[Mark Antony]

_{Also, no StanStans were harmed in the making of this post.}

Thought provoking OP :drunk: , Lovely new avi as well.

content to let his brothers stew amongst the Lannisters while he himself fled to DS. When he could have gone North with Robert, or even met him and Ned at the Trident or sent Davos to KL or tried any of a hundred other ways to warn Ned or either of his brothers.

But he didn't-either because he's a coward or he was counting on Robert dying-take your pick.

One of my biggest problems with Stannis for sure

[Éadaoin]

The sig is sexist. Sorry.

I'm beginning to see why your enemies on here all tend to reserve a very specific kind of derision for you tbh.

Anti-Stannis fans keep trying to explain what I don't think can be explained easily: why is Stannis so unlikeable? I find it immensely perplexing that Stannis inspires this kind of devoted, hardcore fandom in people. When I read the books, he came off as a harsh, dogmatic, jerk of a character, and I had him pegged as a villain until I came to this website, where I discovered that a "Stannis-fan" was actually a thing. When I went back to reason my dislike of Stannis, I couldn't really support my position. I think his affinity with Melisandre, so obviously an antagonistic character, casts him in an unfavorable light, and his rigid sense of justice in the face of more moral judgement is off-putting, but ultimately I can't justify what's so wrong with him; he's an honest lord attempting to claim his birthright, a little whiny perhaps, but ultimately in the right. There's nothing in his actions or his motives which is inherently wrong, as so many anti-Stannis fans keep trying to argue.

Though obviously I disagree with the conclusion that you ultimately reach, this is an interesting way of thinking about Stannis. I guess to be fair to him, though, is Stannis really any more inherently unlikable than any of the other "controversial" characters? (Characters who seem to inspire polarizing opinions, or characters with particularly vocal anti-fans, or those who predictably have both?) He does have the disadvantage of not being a POV character yet still supporting both such an enormous fan base and "anti-fanbase", I guess.

If you compare Stannis to the likes of, I don't know, the Lannister siblings, I'll admit he can look decent in some lights. (And, like Cersei, one of his redeeming qualities is that he's pretty funny.) OTOH, when people whitewash any of the Lannister siblings, it's never blindly accepted to the same extent that whitewashing of Stannis is. I think perception of Stannis suffers in part due to some of his fan reactions and how they've colored him, maybe.

[Nictarion]

One of my biggest problems with Stannis for sure

Same here. And it was right from the start of the story. Between that and the Cressen prologue, I formed a low opinion of him right away.

[Mark Antony]

Same here. And it was right from the start of the story. Between that and the Cressen prologue, I formed a low opinion of him right away.

Poor Cressen :frown5:

Stannis, my lord, my sad sullen boy, son I never had, you must not do this, don’t you know how I have cared for you, lived for you, loved you despite all? Yes, loved you, better than Robert even, or Renly, for you were the one unloved, the one who needed me most.

[Arya kiddin']

Yeah the best part of this thread comes from me. Your welcome. When I was informed this thread was being made I commanded that she stop. When that didn't work I pleaded. And when she refused my best efforts on both fronts I figured I at least deserved a disclaimer for me and the Stan Stan's.

Honestly too much Stan bashing gets a little annoying for me, so that was the best part of the OP. It's not like I don't agree (to some extent) to what Eadaoin said, the man just has some flaws, but who doesn't. I like him anyway. He is the only one continuously doing something. His heroics don't come because of some prophecy that was promised and he doesn't needs a glowing sword either to be cool. ;)

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

-snip-

Poor Cressen :frown5:

Same here. And it was right from the start of the story. Between that and the Cressen prologue, I formed a low opinion of him right away.

Anti Stan-stans out in full force! Nicky you said that Stannis was atleast a grey character, but now changing opinions eh!

[Nictarion]

Anti Stan-stans out in full force! Nicky you said that Stannis was atleast a grey character, but now changing opinions eh!

What are you talking about? Of course he's a grey character. What does my not liking him have to do with that?