Stan the Man Baratheon Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Renly never said anything hurtful TO Shireen. Oh did he now? What about the stone castle reference to shireen's deformity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Roast Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 That Stannis, like every Medieval ruler in Westeros or in our history, has a long list of human rights violations is a given. It is the way things are in a Medieval society. . It is true that he has blood on his hands and has done some pretty dark things, but does he have a claim as the "Worst Human Rights Abuser in Westeros?" Nope. Not even close.There are many and more ahead of him for that title. Of the known characters, the win has to go to Tywin Lannister. From acts of massive genocide as a teenager to the sack of Kings Landing to ordering an active campaign of war crimes against the Riverlands to the Red Wedding to ordering the rape of his daughter-in-law and many, many other incidents small and large, Tywin has to claim the prize. When it comes to human rights abuses very few known characters are in Tywin's league. Stannis is not one of them. Even Roose Bolton--bad as he is—is not in Tywin's league. Perhaps Euron Crow's Eye will catch up in later books, but at the end of ADWD Tywin is pretty much without peer when it comes to human rights violations. It is silly to pretend that Stannis has a longer rap sheet than the Psychopath of the West. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Luckily I have a somewhat functional relationship with my BrothersI would think most do compared to the Baratheon brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danm_999 Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 I can accept Stannis' comment was homophobic, but I'm not sure it's evidence of an anti-gay agenda, as has been alleged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Oh did he now? What about the stone castle reference to shireen's deformity. It was not said directly to Shireen like you claimed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 That Stannis, like every Medieval ruler in Westeros or in our history, has a long list of human rights violations is a given. It is the way things are in a Medieval society. . It is true that he has blood on his hands and has done some pretty dark things, but does he have a claim as the "Worst Human Rights Abuser in Westeros?" Nope. Not even close.There are many and more ahead of him for that title. Of the known characters, the win has to go to Tywin Lannister. From acts of massive genocide as a teenager to the sack of Kings Landing to ordering an active campaign of war crimes against the Riverlands to the Red Wedding to ordering the rape of his daughter-in-law and many, many other incidents small and large, Tywin has to claim the prize. When it comes to human rights abuses very few known characters are in Tywin's league. Stannis is not one of them. Even Roose Bolton--bad as he is—is not in Tywin's league. Perhaps Euron Crow's Eye will catch up in later books, but at the end of ADWD Tywin is pretty much without peer when it comes to human rights violations. It is silly to pretend that Stannis has a longer rap sheet than the Psychopath of the West. cersei is worse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 And how does that show that he isn't homophobic, exactly? Yes, he was insulting Renly - specifically, he was insulting him with reference to his homosexuality.I hardly think it's fair to brand him homophobic after one comment said in anger to his brother. After this one joke, he never utters another word about anyone's sexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Words are wind. If Stannis were so homophobic, why would he name Renly his heir after he bends the knee, and let him keep Storm's End, and remain on the Small Council?Because he knew he couldn't beat his army. And he was unaware of Mel's shadowbaby plan. Dont kid yourself, Stannis hated his brothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Words are wind. If Stannis were so homophobic, why would he name Renly his heir after he bends the knee, and let him keep Storm's End, and remain on the Small Council? You might as well ask why, if Stannis didn't get on well with Renly, he'd name him his heir and let him keep Storm's End: or why, if Renly disliked Stannis so much, he offered him a deal in turn. They did it because they had something to gain by it. In any case, the point was not whether Stannis is in general homophobic - I think he's probably no worse than most Westerosi lords in that respect - but that it's a strange defense to claim that a homophobic insult is not evidence of homophobia because it's an insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Because he knew he couldn't beat his army. And he was unaware of Mel's shadowbaby plan. Dont kid yourself, Stannis hated his brothers. There is a fine line between dislike and hatred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Because he knew he couldn't beat his army. And he was unaware of Mel's shadowbaby plan. Dont kid yourself, Stannis hated his brothers.Nooooope. He specifically says he loved Robert as his brother. Don't kid yourself. Stannis knew he would win if he went to se, Mel told him he would win a great victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matoro Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Right now, you are comparing Stannis to the morals of our days. It doesen't work like that. You have to compare Stannis to the other characters in the world of ice and fire. By Westerosi standards he isn't that cruel. For example, cutting hand or fingers was very typical punishiment for thievery/smuggling. And I don't really understand those gay-arguments. There were other people who referenced to Renly's sexuality, too (I'll shove that sword so deep even Renly won't find it). I don't understand how saying Renly homosexual makes Stannis homopobic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 There is a fine line between dislike and hatred. Does killing your bro with ~dark magic~ cross that line :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan the Man Baratheon Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Does killing your bro with ~dark magic~ cross that line :P He didn't order Mel to kill Renly like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am of the Night Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 I picture Stannis subscribing to the 90's Clinton philosophy; "Don't ask, don't tell." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Does killing your bro with ~dark magic~ cross that line :P Stannis will never forget Renly's peach yo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 Nooooope. He specifically says he loved Robert as his brother. Don't kid yourself. Yeah, he loved him so much he left him to die in Kings Landing at the hands of the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Éadaoin Posted December 13, 2013 Author Share Posted December 13, 2013 Whoa, I managed to fall behind.You know, her av is actually homophobic. She claims to be this paragon of human rights but goes around with a sexist sig and homophobic av. Very disappointing.I guess it's typical of you to resort to personal attacks because you can't assault my actual arguments. Though I can see how one could potentially attack the sig, the avatar is pretty flawless. I don't understand- are you automatically associating rainbows with homosexuality and homosexuality with homophobia? It's kind of a bizarre leap.To attempt to keep this somewhat on topic, that reminds me of Stavos- which reminds me of Davos. Davos is awesome and I can't deny that even in an attempt to criticize Stannis- I think that Davos clearly has a better chance of helping Stannis see the error of his ways than anyone else. Though getting rid of Mel would also help, of course.~~sexism~~Just as E-Ro has soaked up some of Stannis' more negative attributes, I guess the QoT could potentially have rubbed off on me a little. Though I'm still not convinced that my signature is truly offensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 You might as well ask why, if Stannis didn't get on well with Renly, he'd name him his heir and let him keep Storm's End: or why, if Renly disliked Stannis so much, he offered him a deal in turn. They did it because they had something to gain by it.In any case, the point was not whether Stannis is in general homophobic - I think he's probably no worse than most Westerosi lords in that respect - but that it's a strange defense to claim that a homophobic insult is not evidence of homophobia because it's an insult.I think we can agree on that. It was a homophobic remark, but making Stannis out to be anti-gay, or hating gays because of one sentence is dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 13, 2013 Share Posted December 13, 2013 The queen of thorns said some way more insulting things about gays as I remember. No one complains about that oddly enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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