Role in WoW: Sansa Stark (Spoilers)

[Amoracchius]

I don't believe we've been arguing about helping Sansa escape -- Sansa could "escape" on her own, if she wanted to, from all appearances. Generally when people talk about Shadrich getting involved, it means him abducting her, which is a lot more difficult than facilitating a person's escape with their cooperation.

I follow you on that, however, to my mind, Ser Dontos' escape plan was really Littlefinger's abduction, so why couldn't Shadrich pull off something similar? Not saying this will definitely happen, just that I see it as a possibility.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

Considering the way Sansa's POV chapters are written it is highly likely - if not 100 % sure - that Sansa will be in the end of the series in position of power. Why do I think this? Because Sansa is without a doubt the most powerless POV Character who has no agency whatsoever. The narrative that GRRM is telling around her requires her to gain back her agency and dictate her own choices rather than others doing it for her. Plus her storyline has largely been about Game of Thrones and court intrigue. Like I said Sansa's role in Winds of Winter will mostly be about regaining her agency through court intrigue/game of thrones. Heck it can be argued that Sansa will be more effective than Little Finger. The quote of Keep your hands clean and them eating a blood orange highly suggest it since Little Finger attempted to keep his hands clean, but it still got sticky and wet. Whereas Sansa chose to use a spoon. Though I doubt that Sansa will come out squeaky clean at the end of the series. My point is that I think that Winds of Winter will be a transition of Sansa stop being a pawn and attempt to be a player.

[Winnief]

Considering the way Sansa's POV chapters are written it is highly likely - if not 100 % sure - that Sansa will be in the end of the series in position of power. Why do I think this? Because Sansa is without a doubt the most powerless POV Character who has no agency whatsoever. The narrative that GRRM is telling around her requires her to gain back her agency and dictate her own choices rather than others doing it for her. Plus her storyline has largely been about Game of Thrones and court intrigue. Like I said Sansa's role in Winds of Winter will mostly be about regaining her agency through court intrigue/game of thrones. Heck it can be argued that Sansa will be more effective than Little Finger. The quote of Keep your hands clean and them eating a blood orange highly suggest it since Little Finger attempted to keep his hands clean, but it still got sticky and wet. Whereas Sansa chose to use a spoon. Though I doubt that Sansa will come out squeaky clean at the end of the series. My point is that I think that Winds of Winter will be a transition of Sansa stop being a pawn and attempt to be a player.

Well put!

[GinesthoiOfIce]

I was just thinking about the "controversial chapter". The fact is, I don't think it is going to be Sansa who does something controversial, but rather Littlefinger. Yet Littlefinger, as many have suggested, wouldn't be remiss enough to forget himself and rape Sansa. What if the whole controversy was about Robert Arryn ? Not him being poisoned by Littlefinger or Sansa, but -after Sansa's meeting or marriage with Harry The Heir- Littlefinger "giving away" Sweetrobin to Lyn Corbray. Littlefinger's plan would have been to thus induce one of Robert's fits and thus administer him some fatal sweetsleep and get rid of him while being able of accusing Lyn Corbray for the incident. But Sansa would look for Robert and save him from Lyn, thus meddling with Littlefinger's plans while Lyn would tell her he was allowed to by Littlefinger himself.

Certainly such a gruesome scenario would be controversial enough, and also would lead Sansa to take actions against Littlefinger.

[Colonel Green]

The original statement was actually that it was something that some part of the fandom may find controversial; I think the molestation of a physically unwell child would be a bit beyond that (as would killing said child).

[Winnief]

Personally I wonder if the so-called "controversial" chapter won't be just Sansa getting a sex talk from Miranda the way she got from Margaery on the show.

[Colonel Green]

That's the opposite of what I was talking about earlier: I can't imagine anybody finding that controversial.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

That's the opposite of what I was talking about earlier: I can't imagine anybody finding that controversial.

*raises hand*

[ladydewinter]

Of the Tullys were to get back possesion of riverrun from the Frey's all of Hoster Tully's heirs,as well as thier heirs would need to be dead before the Blackfish would be lord. I am not sure why people think otherwise.

[Winnief]

Of the Tullys were to get back possesion of riverrun from the Frey's all of Hoster Tully's heirs,as well as thier heirs would need to be dead before the Blackfish would be lord. I am not sure why people think otherwise.

True, but it would be perfectly in character for the Blackfish to take back Riverrun, and claim it in the name of some other Tully heir until they came for it-acting like a Regent/Castellan.

Personally, more than the idea of Sansa killing LF, I would like it best if Sansa just found a way to escape-took advantage of Baelish being on an overnight trip, then grabbed all of Lysa's jewels, some gold, (maybe SR as well,) and just flew the nest, to make her way up North. Once news about Rickon and/or Jon reaches her that's probably exactly what she'll want to do. And that would be a great way for Sansa to take control of her destiny-which is what we've all wanted since AGoT.

[Colonel Green]

Personally, more than the idea of Sansa killing LF, I would like it best if Sansa just found a way to escape-took advantage of Baelish being on an overnight trip, then grabbed all of Lysa's jewels, some gold, (maybe SR as well,) and just flew the nest, to make her way up North. Once news about Rickon and/or Jon reaches her that's probably exactly what she'll want to do. And that would be a great way for Sansa to take control of her destiny-which is what we've all wanted since AGoT.

That would make all the setup for the Vale completely pointless, and deny her the chance to have a big stage to herself (which is what I think the Vale is all about).

[ladydewinter]

True, but it would be perfectly in character for the Blackfish to take back Riverrun, and claim it in the name of some other Tully heir until they came for it-acting like a Regent/Castellan.

Personally, more than the idea of Sansa killing LF, I would like it best if Sansa just found a way to escape-took advantage of Baelish being on an overnight trip, then grabbed all of Lysa's jewels, some gold, (maybe SR as well,) and just flew the nest, to make her way up North. Once news about Rickon and/or Jon reaches her that's probably exactly what she'll want to do. And that would be a great way for Sansa to take control of her destiny-which is what we've all wanted since AGoT.

I agree, and the Blackfish would be a great ally for Sansa.

[ladydewinter]

And, I also think it will give us an idea of where Sansa, is mentally and emotionally in how she treats sweet robin. Protecting him or not. So far she has been kind and sympathetic. I think she will try to protect him if she can. But, I don't see him in LF long term schemes. Forcing her to act on her own. Possibly.

[Winnief]

Winnief, on 11 Feb 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

That would make all the setup for the Vale completely pointless, and deny her the chance to have a big stage to herself (which is what I think the Vale is all about).

You may be right Colonel Green-but just as how Sansa's time in KL, did teach her a lot even if she was an observer more than an actor so might her time in the Vale...and besides if she does escape she would probably need allies wouldn't she? So she might try to find herself some.

[Queen Sansa Stark]

About that controversial chapter. It could also be Sansa vowing herself she would bring Little Finger down. Let's keep in mind only some fans will find it controversial. And there are some fans who fawn over Little Finger and call him "The Great One".

[Persicaria]

I haven't seen many fans of little finger, but I think most people expect him to die. So I think it might take a little more than a vow to be controversial. I want whatever it is to be good and showcase a more proactive Sansa.

[Littlefinger86]

Given my username I obviously have a certain viewpoint in regards to Littlefinger and Sansa that is the polar opposite of 98% of posters on this board. Getting that out of the way I would like to present an alternative (and I think more truthful representation) of Littlefinger's actions in regards to the Starks, Baratheonsm and the Lannisters. the main complaint that I have with people misunderstanding LF's intentions is he gets all the blame and none of the credit for what he does. I do not think of him as "the Great One" but he's the best player in the game that we've seen so far.

Given LFs background and ambitious nature it is not surprising to see him "meddle" to rise to his power in his own. Since the Starks, Baratheons, and the Lannisters are in power at the beginning of the series, they have the farthest to fall when and if LF does meddle with them. The purpose of this post is to show that LF's actions can be seen as heroic and highly risky to his own person if he were caught by Tywin or Cercei and his plans laid bare. His one true reprehensible act (the killing of Jon Arryn) was a conspiracy murder that was instigated by Lysa Arryn because she wanted to keep her son close. I see LF as a champion of small causes who seizes the chaos anad profits from it. His chaos however is targeted. He is not responsible for the mass death of smallfolk in the War of five Kings: Cercei and Lancel are because they actually killed the King who could have put a stop to it.

1. Littlefinger wanted Ned out of power after Ned unwisely but honorably refuses LF's offer to make peace with the Lannisters. Instead, Ned chooses to support Stannis and then without the full support of his army behind him tries to take on Cercei Lannister, the daughter of the most powerful man in Westeros (not smart). Littlefinger doesn't want Ned dead. In fact in Dance, during Cercei's walk of shame we learn that both Littlefinger and Varys (when do they work together on anything?) convinced Cercei to send him to the Night's Watch. There is no proof that LF prodded, cajoled, or influenced Joffrey in any way to actually kill Ned.

2.. Littlefinger saves Ned Stark from his own honor in the throne room: that's right I said saved. Ned was about to enter into a losing battle against spear armed troops while he himself was wounded. If the Hound didn't kill him, one of the Gold Cloaks would have. By putting a knife to Ned's throat he stops him from actually fighting and dying in the battle. Cercei bribed janos Slynt with Harrenhal, not LF. Even Janos Slynt isn't a fool enough to betray the Hand of the King and the Warden of the North without having the backing of Cercei Lannister and a castle in his own right. LF could not promise Harrenhal to Slynt, only Cercei could.

3. He saves Sansa Stark when he can (meaning when not in direct observation of the Lannisters and the Tyrells). Both the Lannisters and the Tyrells wanted Sansa as the key to the North. And I'm not saying that LF doesn't want that either. LF doesn't have and army at that point. he only has informers and some hedge knights. None of whom could stand up against the Kingsguard so it LF should not be blamed for not helping Sansa out more than he actually did in Kings Landing. Sansa obviously does want to leave King's Landing because of all the times she does meet up with Ser Dontos in the godswood prior to them actually leaving. It's not an abduction. LF is the closest thing that Sansa has in a Father and a friend that she has left.

4. To answer the question about why Sansa is wearing the amythysts, they are described as purple a color that would clash horribly with the green of House Tyrell. House Tyrell was also center stage at the wedding. Who would be looking closely at the disgraced daughter of Ned Stark? Also, i think LF and LO wanted Sansa to be a part of Joffrey's murder not for guilt reasons but for her own self. Sansa would want Joffrey dead, and while his blood on her hands might horrify her initially, part of her woud be somewhat satisfied as having a part to play in his downfall. When she is running away and climbing down the steps with Ser Dontos she's slowly coming to realize what she did but she is happy that Joffrey is dead so there are mixed feelings there.

5. I don't want this post to go too long, but my last point is to those who wish for Sansa to kill LF as part of the fulfillment of the woods witch prophesy. Where's the castle made of snow? That seems to represent Winterfell not the Castle that they are located now in the Vale. Why not have Sansa kill Roose Bolton. He's certainly now a giant player in the game of thrones. Also, if Sansa were to kill LF for something she deems unforgivable that he did in the past, it would be a huge strategic blunder. She would lose his network of spies and information gatherers who would not be loyal to her for killing their boss (these networks rival Varys in scope in both Westeros and Essos as LF knows about Dany in mentioning the War of three Queens (Cercei, Margery, and Dany), she would lose his financial connections which include most of the banks in Essos and Westeros, and she would lose his mind and knowledge of the players within the game which is formidable and should not be lightly cast aside.

Just something to think about. I look forward to your replies.

[Grand Maester Tarkin]

1. Littlefinger wanted Ned out of power after Ned unwisely but honorably refuses LF's offer to make peace with the Lannisters. Instead, Ned chooses to support Stannis and then without the full support of his army behind him tries to take on Cercei Lannister, the daughter of the most powerful man in Westeros (not smart). Littlefinger doesn't want Ned dead. In fact in Dance, during Cercei's walk of shame we learn that both Littlefinger and Varys (when do they work together on anything?) convinced Cercei to send him to the Night's Watch. There is no proof that LF prodded, cajoled, or influenced Joffrey in any way to actually kill Ned.

Do you have a quote from that scene in Dance? I don't remember it being mentioned. Even if there's no definitive proof that LF convinced Joff to kill Ned, it does fit in with LF's actions throughout GoT. LF purposely exacerbated tensions between the Starks and Lannisters, setting them on a course for war. Ned's execution destroyed the last hope for peace. And even if LF urged Cersei to offer the deal to Ned, that wouldn't undermine his overall plan. It was the only way to get Ned to confess his crimes and acknowledge Joff as king. This is exactly what Joff wanted. Publicly executing Ned after forcing him to confess was the most powerful way to antagonize the North. LF didn't necessarily want Ned dead, but Ned's execution furthered his goals.

[Littlefinger86]

Actually the Lannisters and the Starks exacerbated their own tensions without the help of LF. What you are referring to is the letter that Lysa wrote to her sister accusing the Lannisters of murdering her own husband Jon Arryn. Many see this as the first in a line of exarcerbations to get the Lannisters and Starks to fight one another. I see it instead as one example of the many ways the LF tries to hide his involvement in the murder of Jon Arryn. Let me ask you a few questions:

1. Did LF throw Bran off a roof?

2. Did LF then hire a catspaw to kill the injured Bran?

3. Did LF force, influence, or control events so that Tyrion would meet Catelyn on the road back to Kings Landing?

4. Did LF force Catelyn to take Tyrion prisoner?

5. Did LF kill King Robert Baratheon?

6. Did LF invade the riverlands?

7. Did LF capture Jaime Lannister?

If you answered no to all these questions you are right and I hope you begin to see that the Lannisters and the Starks did enough to each other to start a war without someone else's machinations. What about Ned's action of trying to put Stannis on the throne? don't you think that would have caused a war. Wasn't it Littlefinger who was offering an peaceful alternative?

"It came to her suddenly that she had stood in this very spot before, on the day Lord Eddard Stark had lost his head. That was not supposed to happen. Joff was supposed to spare his life and send him to the Wall. Stark's eldest son would have followed him as Lord of Winterfell, but Sansa would have stayed at court, a hostage. Varys and Littlefinger had worked out the terms, and Ned Stark had swallowed his precious honor and confessed his treason to save his daughter's empty little head."

I don't have page numbers in my kindle edition, but it says it's 83% of way in.

How does Ned's execution further his own goals? At this point in the story, LF is loyal to Tywin because like Grand Maester Pycelle he recognizes Tywin as the most powerful man in Westeros because he's also the richest. So in a sense he's loyal to Casterly Rock. Anyone who controls Casterly Rock controls Littlefinger. And anyone who controls Littlefinger will win the War of the five kings since he can secure the Reach and the Vale to their cause. If Robb Stark had taken Casterly Rock when he first went west by using Jaime Lannister and deception, the war would have turned out much much differently. I know in the series Catelyn meets Littlefinger in Renly Baratheon's camps, but I don't believe that scene is in the books. If Catelyn had made an alliance with Littlefinger, then the North would win the war no matter what happened at the Battle of the Blackwater. Instead she spurns him (again) because she thinks he had a hand in killing her Ned (which he didn't, he tried to save him twice).

What's really interesting now is what king LF will declare for once he openly publicizes that he has saved Sansa Stark from Cercei. Everyone knows that Sansa is wanted by the crown and to have her as your guest is cause for war. However, the Reach and the Lannisters barely outnumber the Vale and are being attacked in multiple places by Stannis, Euron, and Connington. If the Vale declares for Aegon there's no way the Lannister Tyrell alliance will last. Also, Aegon could dissolve the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa since he's an entirely different court with an entirely new High Septon.The only other option to to ally with Stannis. I can't see Littlefinger ever recognizing Stannis as king. And what can Stannis offer him? I personally dislike LF's plan because it involves weakening the Vale by marching right into the path of White Walkers by taking Winterfell. LF obviously doesn't know about them yet (Sam send out ravens warning the seven kingdoms already: show them how to kill wights and white walkers).

[Queen Sansa Stark]

:stillsick: are you serious? I have no problem with people liking Little Finger and even calling him the "great one", but excusing problematic behaviour? :bs: No just no.