Role in WoW: Sansa Stark (Spoilers)

[Freddie Vesey]

But if in the near future, the bannisters are thrown off the throne and the boltons and frees are over thrown with them then

suerly sansa would have a claim to most of these places

[aryagonnakill#2]

I'm not sure the lannisters even need to loose the thrown for Sansa's claims to be recognized. If Euron and Aegon both weaken the Reach, the lannisters are spent and the Vale is fresh.

[Grand Maester Tarkin]

I'm not sure the lannisters even need to loose the thrown for Sansa's claims to be recognized. If Euron and Aegon both weaken the Reach, the lannisters are spent and the Vale is fresh.

Well if Maggy the Frog's predictions are accurate, then Tommen and Myrcella don't have long to live. Depending on who comes after, it could be good news or bad news for Sansa. The Ironborn have managed to make enemies of the entire North, including the Boltons. He could potentially back Sansa over the Boltons as a conciliatory gesture. But, based on his treatment of the Shield Islands, I don't see him pursuing that sort of strategy. I'm hesitant to predict Aegon ganging up on the Reach with the Ironborn. I think he's equally, if not more likely, to march on KL or pull a Stannis and "defend the realm" against the Ironborn. It's hard to say who will join his cause, but I'd count Cersei and Stannis among his main enemies. Sansa would probably find the most favor with Dany, particularly if Tyrion returns with her.

[Freddie Vesey]

yes i think the both of them will stay with with each other(tyrion and sansa) and then they will be hands of the queen

[Arjay Karstark]

yes i think the both of them will stay with with each other(tyrion and sansa) and then they will be hands of the queen

I might be wrong but in the event that Sansa and Tyrion DO end up together again (I've entertained the thought). Tyrion only seems interested in the Rock, he being the only living Lannister (whom he trusts) he would need to remain there.

Possibly allowing Jamie to serve as castleton while keeping Tommen in KL as a ward.

But before that I think,

I imagine when Sansa learns her youngest brother is alive she will start playing her own games to get to him. GRRM didn't spend an entire chapter of her going full on maternal with sweetrobin for nothing.

I really think the Balckfish will spring up in the Vale soon enough.

Sansa HAS to start warging soon, a cat maybe? There has been an Arya POV where she warged a cat in Braavos. Maybe she discovers LF's true plans which are not in her interests.

[Dreams and Prophecies]

if sansa is to warg anything, it would only be appropriate for it to be a bird. Too many bird references with Sansa.

[bluefoot3]

Here's a post on reddit I found (by user t_hrow)

I was reading a storm of swords and I came to the chapter with The Ghost of High Heart and her prophecies. In particular her prophecy with Sansa Stark:

“I dreamt of a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs.” “And later I dreamt that maid again, slaying a savage giant in a castle built of snow.”

We know so far all of the ghost of high heart's prophecies have touched upon very significant events, and her dreams referenced the exact event (as opposed to foreshadowing it). Because of this, I like many others consider Robyn Arryns assault on the snow castle Sansa made as a red herring, and believe that the Savage giant refers to Petyr Baelish (Titan. Of braavos being his official sigil); I have yet to see any other contenders for the savage giant, though you can never be sure with Grrm.

Also, this fan base has suddenly gotten the idea that Sansa will be losing her virginity sometime soon, with either Littlefinger or Harry the Heir as the main culprits. This could quite possibly happen through rape or other sketchy means, which the "controversial" sansa chapter lends credence to.

What I haven't heard anyone address is the fact that "a maid" will slay the savage giant in the castle of snow. Given the importance of detail with prophecies, this is a pretty significant one. If we hold this prophecy to be hinting at the death of littlefinger by sansa, then sansa will still be a maid when she makes her move to eliminate littlefinger. Thus any preemptive notions of sex and rape would be inconsistent with the prophecy (though her maidenhead would be fair game afterward; though I'd like to think she'll be in control of her own destiny by then).

I feel like this is a solid piece of evidence against the Littlefinger/Sansa sex theories (Sansa/Harry sex as well). What say you?

Tl;dr A MAID kills the savage giant in a castle of snow.

What are your thoughts on this? It's clear that maid and maiden are interchangeable, and GRRM isn't the type of guy to slip up on prophecies.

It seems like this clearly states (assuming the prophecy hints at LF's downfall at Sansa's hands):

-LF won't be able to take Sansa's maidenhead (though he may try).

-Sansa should still be a maid when she orchestrates LF's downfall.

-When Sansa retaliates against LF, it'll have to be before her wedding with Harry the Heir (or else how could she still be a maid?), and since LF is the driving force behind Harry and Sansa getting together, if he's gone, it's likely Sansa-Harry pairing is just a red herring.

Love to hear what you think about this!

[Winnief]

I think that's a good catch Bluefoot-I would also direct that prophecy to the attention of anyone who thinks Sansa *won't* take down LF.

[Grand Maester Tarkin]

What are your thoughts on this? It's clear that maid and maiden are interchangeable, and GRRM isn't the type of guy to slip up on prophecies.

It seems like this clearly states (assuming the prophecy hints at LF's downfall at Sansa's hands):

-LF won't be able to take Sansa's maidenhead (though he may try).

-Sansa should still be a maid when she orchestrates LF's downfall.

-When Sansa retaliates against LF, it'll have to be before her wedding with Harry the Heir (or else how could she still be a maid?), and since LF is the driving force behind Harry and Sansa getting together, if he's gone, it's likely Sansa-Harry pairing is just a red herring.

Love to hear what you think about this!

I think it's possible, though unlikely, that when the ghost says "that same maid again," she simply means that she saw the same girl. Not every word she says is literally true (there are not actually serpents in Sansa's hair). That being said, I think it's a safe bet that Sansa will not loose her maidenhood to LF.

I'm actually more intrigued by the "castle built of snow" part of the prophecy. Where do you think this could be? Since winter is coming, a lot of places will be covered in snow, making them possible locales for the ghost's prophecy. Could it be Winterfell?

Finally, while I like the idea of LF being the savage giant, I've seen others suggest the Mountain. While Gregor is certainly a savage giant, his death at the hands of his brother have been heavily foreshadowed. If the giant turns out to be unGregor, however, I could see Sandor killing his brother while wearing the favor of Sansa Stark, thus fulfilling both prophecies. What do you think of that?

[Winnief]

I'm actually more intrigued by the "castle built of snow" part of the prophecy. Where do you think this could be? Since winter is coming, a lot of places will be covered in snow, making them possible locales for the ghost's prophecy. Could it be Winterfell?

Winterfell seems like the best bet to me. Sansa is in a sense 'defending' it from LF's plans to use her to steal control of the North-but it also makes me wonder if LF is planning a trip North himself.

[Lord rosa]

Don't forget about the mad mouse!!

[Grand Maester Tarkin]

Don't forget about the mad mouse!!

I'm hesitant to completely discount Ser Shadrich, but I don't think he poses that great a threat to Sansa or LF. When Brienne meets him, Shadrich appears to be working alone. How could he realistically expect to snatch Sansa from LF and make it all the way back to KL without being killed? The High Road is too dangerous, and a poor hedge knight like Shadrich probably can't afford to hire a ship out of Gulltown. On top of that, Varys has been in hiding since Tywin's murder. So he won't be around to reward Shadrich for his services. Moreover, KL seems ready to explode at the end of aDwD. Who will be left standing after the Lannister/Tyrell/Martell infighting? And will they care about finding Sansa? If Cersei manages to regain control, then the answer is yes. But Cersei has few allies left in the city who are not sitting in a dungeon, so I find that scenario unlikely. The most plausible way I see the Mad Mouse factoring into the plot is if he manages to reveal Alayne Stone's true identity before LF is ready.

[Petyr Patter]

I'm hesitant to completely discount Ser Shadrich, but I don't think he poses that great a threat to Sansa or LF. When Brienne meets him, Shadrich appears to be working alone. How could he realistically expect to snatch Sansa from LF and make it all the way back to KL without being killed? The High Road is too dangerous, and a poor hedge knight like Shadrich probably can't afford to hire a ship out of Gulltown. On top of that, Varys has been in hiding since Tywin's murder. So he won't be around to reward Shadrich for his services. Moreover, KL seems ready to explode at the end of aDwD. Who will be left standing after the Lannister/Tyrell/Martell infighting? And will they care about finding Sansa? If Cersei manages to regain control, then the answer is yes. But Cersei has few allies left in the city who are not sitting in a dungeon, so I find that scenario unlikely. The most plausible way I see the Mad Mouse factoring into the plot is if he manages to reveal Alayne Stone's true identity before LF is ready.

He claims to be working alone... just like Brienne claimed to be looking for her sister. Maybe Shadrich is exactly what he appears. Alternatively, it is possible he works for the Brotherhood without Banners. Or, he is a higher level informant for Varys, instead of just a hedge knight who heard of the reward.

[Colonel Green]

I'm hesitant to completely discount Ser Shadrich, but I don't think he poses that great a threat to Sansa or LF.

I've had the same reservations. He's a solo operative a long way in hostile territory. To extract Sansa he'd have to singlehandedly capture her and then sneak her out of a garrisoned castle, in the middle of winter, and then travel many miles through the snow, and either somehow get through the Bloody Gate (controlled by people adverse to him) or through Gulltown (likewise). And he'd be doing all this just to get to King's Landing, a place which sounds like it will be going to hell in a handbasket very shortly.

[Amoracchius]

He claims to be working alone... just like Brienne claimed to be looking for her sister. Maybe Shadrich is exactly what he appears. Alternatively, it is possible he works for the Brotherhood without Banners. Or, he is a higher level informant for Varys, instead of just a hedge knight who heard of the reward.

:agree:We don't know anything about the Mad Mouse's background except his own claims, which were made to people with whom he had no reason to be truthful. The argument that Ser Shadrich doesn't have the resources to help Sansa escape Littlefinger is undercut by the fact that Ser Dontos helped her escape King's Landing. Based on what we know about Shadrich and what we knew about Dontos at the time (recently impoverished hedge knight and drunken former knight, respectively), neither seems like they should be able to do it, but it's what we don't know about them (worked with Littlefinger and [who knows?]) that will make all the difference.

[Grand Maester Tarkin]

:agree:We don't know anything about the Mad Mouse's background except his own claims, which were made to people with whom he had no reason to be truthful. The argument that Ser Shadrich doesn't have the resources to help Sansa escape Littlefinger is undercut by the fact that Ser Dontos helped her escape King's Landing. Based on what we know about Shadrich and what we knew about Dontos at the time (recently impoverished hedge knight and drunken former knight, respectively), neither seems like they should be able to do it, but it's what we don't know about them (worked with Littlefinger and [who knows?]) that will make all the difference.

Fair enough. It's possible that Shadrich is working within a larger organization. And now that Petyr Patter mentions it, I kind of like the BWB idea. I took what Shadrich said to Brienne at face value, mainly because it matches up with what Jaime is told by Tywin upon returning to KL. Varys had put out a ransom for Sansa Stark following the Purple Wedding. It would make sense for a poor hedge knight who lost on the Blackwater to be motivated by Varys' reward. Of course, by the time Shadrich reaches the Vale, Tyrion has escaped and Varys vanished. At this point, all royal attention is focused on finding Tywin's murderer, and Sansa becomes a minor concern. This is why I am skeptical that Shadrich is part of a larger operation like Ser Dontos and Littlefinger. Priorities have shifted drastically in KL since Shadrich's departure, so even if Shadrich does have a network, I can't see a major reason to return Sansa to the capital.

I am more willing to believe a possible BWB connection, because we know that part of the Brotherhood's plan has been to send spies to infiltrate enemy castles. Plus, the BWB has a legitimate reason to capture Sansa and bring her to Lady Stoneheart. Maybe Brienne was telling the truth in Jaime's DwD POV chapter? Maybe they really have captured Sansa?

[Colonel Green]

The argument that Ser Shadrich doesn't have the resources to help Sansa escape Littlefinger is undercut by the fact that Ser Dontos helped her escape King's Landing.

I don't believe we've been arguing about helping Sansa escape -- Sansa could "escape" on her own, if she wanted to, from all appearances. Generally when people talk about Shadrich getting involved, it means him abducting her, which is a lot more difficult than facilitating a person's escape with their cooperation.

[Petyr Patter]

My own, somewhat crackpot theory is Ser Shadrich is actually Hoster Tully's bastard, which I support here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/94043-sansas-fate/?p=4795307 .

This doesn't exclude working for the Brotherhood or Varys, but it does give him a special interest in Sansa.

[Cryler]

I prefer she accepts her marriage to Tyrion and throws LF under the bus with the Vale Lords. Not saying she stays with Tyrion but it would cover the controversial Sansa chapter we've heard of.

[Tini]

I don't believe we've been arguing about helping Sansa escape -- Sansa could "escape" on her own, if she wanted to, from all appearances. Generally when people talk about Shadrich getting involved, it means him abducting her, which is a lot more difficult than facilitating a person's escape with their cooperation.

Ser Shadrich might not have the means to abduct her, even though I think he could work around that. But I wonder what will happen if Sansa finds out that Ser Shadrich was looking to collect the bounty on her head? If Ser Shadrich has no idea who Alayne Stone is, he has no particular reason to keep his bounty hunting a secret. Sansa might feel threatened, and take steps to remove that threat.