Mithras Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 “A strange and subtle folk, the Volantenes,” he [Doran] muttered, as he put the elephant aside. Doran says that after Arianne's time in prison ends and they share words. Doran is a subtle man and he uses cyvasse pieces to symbolize political entities. Like this: “Justice.” Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, “Fire and blood.” Onyx dragon is a black dragon and I think Doran is thinking of allying with team fAegon or already declared for him in secrecy. Coming back to the thread title, what could Doran possibly mean by that? It is interesting to note that elephants are doves and tigers are hawks in Volantis. However, there are no tigers in the game of cyvasse but elephants. Is this the irony here? The game of cyvasse is all about war and it is natural to include elephants in this game but Volantenes named the doves as elephants. What can we make from this regarding the elections in Volantis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 The passage you quoted is a hint that Aegon is a Blackfyre. GRRM doubles down in Winds...The princess remembered how her father had pressed the onyx cyvasse piece into her palm, his voice hoarse and low as he confessed his plan. A long and perilous voyage, with an uncertain welcome at its end, he had said. He has gone to bring us back our hearts desire. Vengeance. Justice. Fire and blood. Fire and blood was what Jon Connington (if indeed it was him) was offering as well. Or was it? "He comes with sellswords, but no dragons," Prince Doran had told her, the night the raven came. "The Golden Company is the best and largest of the free companies, but ten thousand mercenaries cannot hope to win the Seven Kingdoms. Elias son I would weep for joy if some part of my sister had survived, but what proof do we have that this is Aegon?" His voice broke when he said that. "Where are the dragons?" he asked. "Where is Daenerys?" and Arianne knew that he was really saying, "Where is my son?"I don't think there's anything to the omission of tigers. The cyvasse pieces are used in the game similarly to the way the actual assets they represent are used in battle. Tigers aren't used in battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Pedant Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 The passage you quoted is a hint that Aegon is a Blackfyre. GRRM doubles down in Winds... How is it a hint? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 How is it a hint?The arms of the Targaryens are red dragon on black. The arms of the Blackfyres are a black dragon on red. So Doran is pressing the black dragon into Arianne's hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crow's Third Eye Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 The OP was asking about the elephant piece werent they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeirwoodTreeHugger Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I'm guessing the elephant is Doran. Slow, patient, intelligent and he never forgets. I don't know why there's no tiger though. Maybe because Oberyn is already dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maester Pedant Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 The arms of the Targaryens are red dragon on black. The arms of the Blackfyres are a black dragon on red. So Doran is pressing the black dragon into Arianne's hand. That's subtle, but very intriguing. Well observed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 That's subtle, but very intriguing. Well observed!Fire Eater pointed that out in the Moments of Foreshadowing threads. There is a lot of foreshadowing of Dance v.2.0. in the cyvasse games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Not Dead Just Broken Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 “A strange and subtle folk, the Volantenes,” he [Doran] muttered, as he put the elephant aside. Doran says that after Arianne's time in prison ends and they share words. Doran is a subtle man and he uses cyvasse pieces to symbolize political entities. Like this: “Justice.” Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, “Fire and blood.” Onyx dragon is a black dragon and I think Doran is thinking of allying with team fAegon or already declared for him in secrecy. Coming back to the thread title, what could Doran possibly mean by that? It is interesting to note that elephants are doves and tigers are hawks in Volantis. However, there are no tigers in the game of cyvasse but elephants. Is this the irony here? The game of cyvasse is all about war and it is natural to include elephants in this game but Volantenes named the doves as elephants. What can we make from this regarding the elections in Volantis? The elephant part is rather peculiar, here's the entire thing: “A strange and subtle folk, the Volantenes,” he muttered, as he put the elephant aside. “I saw Volantis once, on my way to Norvos, where I first met Mellario. The bells were ringing, and the bears danced down the steps. Areo will recall the day.” “I remember,” echoed Areo Hotah in his deep voice. “The bears danced and the bells rang, and the prince wore red and gold and orange. My lady asked me who it was who shone so bright.” I have to think the Elephant is some sort of failed scheme. Quentyn Martell's troubles securing passage to Meereen in Volantis would make more sense if Doran was trying to arrange something and it fell apart. Here's how I read it. He's fingering the Onyx Elephant but puts it aside in seeming disgust - "he muttered." I think the Elephant represents Volantis as a whole or the rulers of Volantis (currently two Elephants, one Tiger). Then he quickly changes the topic to when he met Mellario. We know his marriage to Mellario went sour. So perhaps, he's saying that he had a plan to have Volantis assist Quentyn and Dany but like his marriage it went sour. Maybe he misunderstood where their loyalty would lie. Maybe he didn't think the peaceful Volantene faction would send the fleet to attack Dany. As I say, it's a strange passage, but that's my best guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Fire Eater pointed that out in the Moments of Foreshadowing threads. There is a lot of foreshadowing of Dance v.2.0. in the cyvasse games. Actually, that was tze or some other poster who originally pointed it out. A white elephant is mistaken for Illyrio by Tyrion and the elephants are emphasized in "The Lost Lord." I think the elephants represent the GC, or Aegon's forces. As for the games, “He always sets his squares up the same way, with all the mountains in the front and his elephants in the passes,” said Myrcella. “So I send my dragon through to eat his elephants.” The dwarf pushed his black dragon across a range of mountains Whenever Tyrion and Aegon play cyvasse, Tyrion wins, and whenever a Lannister plays against a Martell in cyvasse, the Lannister wins. I think we will see that later when Tyrion bests Aegon and the Martells in the second Dance of Dragons, especially since he knows Aegon's main battle strategy. Tyrion may manage to push Aegon, the black dragon, and the GC, the elephants, through the Red Mountains of Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 3, 2014 Author Share Posted January 3, 2014 Tyrion almost grabbed his dragon but thought better of it. Last game he had brought her out too soon and lost her to a trebuchet. “If we do meet these fabled pirates, I may join up with them. I’ll tell them that my name is Hugor Halfmaester.” He moved his light horse toward Haldon’s mountains. Haldon answered with an elephant. “Hugor Halfwit would suit you better.” “I only need half my wits to be a match for you.” Tyrion moved up his heavy horse to support the light. “Perhaps you would care to wager on the outcome?” The Halfmaester arched an eyebrow. “How much?” “I have no coin. We’ll play for secrets.” “Griff would cut my tongue out.” “Afraid, are you? I would be if I were you.” “The day you defeat me at cyvasse will be the day turtles crawl out my arse.” The Halfmaester moved his spears. “You have your wager, little man.” Tyrion stretched a hand out for his dragon. This is a cyvasse game between Tyrion and Haldon. First of let us remember what kind of players these two are. Haldon is a go-by-the-book man. He does everything according to what is written in the books. Worse, he does not question the validity of the information in the books. Tyrion is also a scholar type but he has analytical thinking besides. These were made very clear when Haldon made a quiz for Tyrion and he kicked Haldon’s ass. Haldon was unimpressed. “Even Duck knows that tale. Can you tell me the name of the knight who tried the same ploy with Vhagar during the Dance of the Dragons?” Tyrion grinned. “Ser Byron Swann. He was roasted for his trouble … only the dragon was Syrax, not Vhagar.” “I fear that you’re mistaken. In The Dance of the Dragons, A True Telling, Maester Munkun writes—” “—that it was Vhagar. Grand Maester Munkun errs. Ser Byron’s squire saw his master die, and wrote his daughter of the manner of it. His account says it was Syrax, Rhaenyra’s she-dragon, which makes more sense than Munken’s version. Swann was the son of a marcher lord, and Storm’s End was for Aegon. Vhagar was ridden by Prince Aemond, Aegon’s brother. Why should Swann want to slay her?” Haldon pursed his lips. In this game, Tyrion waits for the right time to unleash his dragon. He first moves his light cavalry to Haldon’s mountains. Haldon replies with his elephants because you know elephants kick the shit out of light cavalry. Tyrion moves his heavy cavalry to support the light. Haldon moves his spears to impale Tyrion’s cavalry. And then Tyrion stretches his hand to his dragon. Tyrion plays aggressive. Haldon replies with a passive and defensive game. We know that three hours later Tyrion is victorious and turtles are crawling out Haldon’s ass. I think this battle will be on the Dornish mountains and passes. Haldon’s elephants are the GC and his spearmen are the Dornishmen. Tyrion’s light cavalry may be some khalassar Dany brought to Westeros and his heavy cavalry might be the full force of the Vale. Tyrion-Viserion couple will have a significant role in this battle and team Dany will be victorious. I think turtles crawling out of Haldon’s arse has another deep meaning. I have a recent theory that Doran allied with team fAegon already, Edric Storm is brought from Lys along with the GC and he will be legitimized by fAegon. Eldon Estermont will be Edric’s regent and after that, team fAegon will have a strong grasp of Dorne and Stormlands. Besides, they will use Edric as one of the proofs of the twincest. The sigil of House Estermont is a turtle and I think when this battle is lost, Estermonts will leave team fAegon and swear fealty to Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iona Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Lamprey, I really like your interpretations of the cyvasse game and Haldon's personality, but I must admit that turtle part sounds a little... what's the word I'm going after that's so perfect for this occation, hmm... half-assed. (pun intented, pardon my French) :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 “A strange and subtle folk, the Volantenes,” he muttered, as he put the elephant aside. “I saw Volantis once, on my way to Norvos, where I first met Mellario. The bells were ringing, and the bears danced down the steps. Areo will recall the day.” “I remember,” echoed Areo Hotah in his deep voice. “The bears danced and the bells rang, and the prince wore red and gold and orange. My lady asked me who it was who shone so bright.” What the hell I'll try my hand at some crackpot forshadowing 1) Clearly the Volantinian ruler caste 2) Ringing bells. Something is seriously a miss. Most likely it signifies the Volantinian upperclass losing the battle for their city. 3) Bears. Ser Jorah infiltrates the city on Dany's behalf to rouse the slaves 4) Forshadows Dany as she's proclaimed AA (see Aemon saying that tPtwP could be a woman). In that case the Lady is the widow of the waterfront or if you turn the genderroles Benerro. Wow, never thought that it would be that easy to come up with BS-forshadowing in a moments notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 snip . I love the analysis. Although, I don't think it will be Aegon who legitimizes Edric but Dany and Tyrion. It was Rheanyra's side who legitimized bastards, and I think Edric may be the Addam of Hull in that he may go to Moqorro and assemble an army that stops the advance of Aegon's army in a surprise attack. But also, like Addam, the endeavor costs him his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted January 3, 2014 Author Share Posted January 3, 2014 I love the analysis. Although, I don't think it will be Aegon who legitimizes Edric but Dany and Tyrion. It was Rheanyra's side who legitimized bastards, and I think Edric may be the Addam of Hull in that he may go to Moqorro and assemble an army that stops the advance of Aegon's army in a surprise attack. But also, like Addam, the endeavor costs him his life. Thanks. I think Aurane Waters is a better candidate for the role Addam of Hull. He will declare for Dany when she makes her claim. Aurane Waters will flee again when Dany will be paranoid and half-mad like Rhaenyra (or she already is that way :) By the way, another thing of note in the Haldon-Tyrion cyvasse game. Tyrion sends his cavalry to mountains. This seems as a folly because mounted warriors have their advantage on the plain fields. They are doomed on irregular terrain. That is why Haldon sends his anti-cavalry units to slaughter Tyrion's cavalry on the tight mountain passes. That is the time for the dragons because dragons can fly through mountains and both elephants and spearmen are prey to them. Dragons like to attack from above. Since Haldon lost this game, his dragon should be at a far position while Tyrion is slaughtering the elephants and the spearmen with his dragon. Dany will press attack on Dorne. fAegon looks very much like Daeron the Daring in the original Dance. fAegon will send the Dornishman and the GC to defeat Dany's forces on the tight mountain passes while his main host is slowly advancing to the undefended KL where Dany sits on the IT. At the same time, Redwyne Fleet will be also closing to Blackwater Bay but on the way Aurane Waters will show up and deal a heavy blow to the Redwyne Fleet at the cost of his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 [snip!] The sigil of House Estermont is a turtle and I think when this battle is lost, Estermonts will leave team fAegon and swear fealty to Dany. Lovely! :bowdown: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Thanks. I think Aurane Waters is a better candidate for the role Addam of Hull. He will declare for Dany when she makes her claim. Aurane Waters will flee again when Dany will be paranoid and half-mad like Rhaenyra (or she already is that way :) By the way, another thing of note in the Haldon-Tyrion cyvasse game. Tyrion sends his cavalry to mountains. This seems as a folly because mounted warriors have their advantage on the plain fields. They are doomed on irregular terrain. That is why Haldon sends his anti-cavalry units to slaughter Tyrion's cavalry on the tight mountain passes. That is the time for the dragons because dragons can fly through mountains and both elephants and spearmen are prey to them. Dragons like to attack from above. Since Haldon lost this game, his dragon should be at a far position while Tyrion is slaughtering the elephants and the spearmen with his dragon. Dany will press attack on Dorne. fAegon looks very much like Daeron the Daring in the original Dance. fAegon will send the Dornishman and the GC to defeat Dany's forces on the tight mountain passes while his main host is slowly advancing to the undefended KL where Dany sits on the IT. At the same time, Redwyne Fleet will be also closing to Blackwater Bay but on the way Aurane Waters will show up and deal a heavy blow to the Redwyne Fleet at the cost of his life. I think the parallel will be inverted. The two betrayers will be men of Velaryon blood: Aurane Waters and Brown Ben Plumm. Hard Hugh Hammer does bear some resemblance to Robert with his large, muscular physique, black hair and preference for a hammer. I think Edric Storm, Robert's son, will be the one fighting for Dany. They may bump into him when they stop in Lys, and Tyrion may urge Dany to legitimize him and make him their puppet Lord of SE. Edric would be eager to prove himself as his father's son, and want to command a victory like his father's victory at Summerhall that Edric mentioned. I think Dany would suspect him after the betrayal given he is the son of the Usurper. As for Rewyne's fleet, I think Gerion Lannister, Dany's master of ships, will take care of that given his years of experience in naval combat as a pirate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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