"You had the better claim, Your Grace."

[TheCrannogDweller]

You're welcome to your opinion, but Robert actually planned for and lead the majority of the major battles in the war, often with Jon and Ned being half a continent away.

What major battles?

Robert fought on his own (which means he planned them) only 4 battles - the 3 battles of Summerhall (against his own bannermen) and the battle at Ashford (which he lost).

The Battle of the Bells, where the Rebellion could've ended, was fought by Ned Stark and Hoster Tully.

All of the Rebel leaders were present at the Trident - and even though we were never told how their planning sessions went, I would bet that the lion portion of it was done by Jon Arryn - after all, he was the one who taught both Ned and Robert probably everything they knew about waging a war.

[J. Stargaryen]

Great topic and speculation. It brings quite a lot to light.

Reiterating, if Targ blood is what makes the claim to the throne, what follows is that Robert's bastards were systematically killed because of their Targ blood, and not their Baratheon blood? It's certainly why Robert wanted Dany and her baby dead.

We can also deduce that the Lannisters have no Targ blood, and this is part of the reason why Tywin was so furious that Cersei wasn't matched with Rhaegar, and was happy to double cross his King, and for her to marry a Baratheon who would bring some Targ blood to the union. Killing off Rhaegar's kids, which we are pretty sure he did on purpose, also makes sense in this context. Twyin of course had no idea Cersei would only have children from her own brother.

Just a thought.

I don't have a Kindle or my books handy, but didn't Jaime suggest Ned might claim the throne when Ned found him in the throne room after Jaime killed Aerys?

Robert's bastards were killed because, despite being bastards, they still had royal blood via Robert. Cersei's brood had no royal blood, as they were only Lannisters, and she was the Queen Consort. Whether Robert was king because he was a Targaryen heir, or because he killed Targaryens is a matter of opinion, I guess. That is to say, whatever constitutes royal blood in people's minds, it flowed through Robert's veins

Not necessarily true. There are the A+J theories to start with, but also a lot of the speculation surrounding the Surprising Lannister Ancestor to be revealed in the world book has focused on Targaryens. It's even possible that it was a specifically disinherited or passed over member of the Targs. Meaning dragon blood but no royalty. I lean towards Daeron the Drunkard's feeble-witted daughter myself if that's the case, but that's a topic for another thread.

It seems like there is some idea that whoever sits on the IT presumes to rule, but I'm not certain how hard and fast that rule is.

[TheCrannogDweller]

I lean towards Daeron the Drunkard's feeble-witted daughter myself if that's the case, but that's a topic for another thread.

If you consider the timeline, that would make her the mother (or less likely grandmother) of Tywin. I doubt that he would fail to brag about that.

If there was a Targaryen girl married into the Lannister main line, it would've probably happened long ago.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

What major battles?

Robert fought on his own (which means he planned them) only 4 battles - the 3 battles of Summerhall (against his own bannermen) and the battle at Ashford (which he lost).

The Battle of the Bells, where the Rebellion could've ended, was fought by Ned Stark and Hoster Tully.

All of the Rebel leaders were present at the Trident - and even though we were never told how their planning sessions went, I would bet that the lion portion of it was done by Jon Arryn - after all, he was the one who taught both Ned and Robert probably everything they knew about waging a war.

Already posted the major battles, pages back. That's my opinion, deal with it.

[J. Stargaryen]

If you consider the timeline, that would make her the mother (or less likely grandmother) of Tywin. I doubt that he would fail to brag about that.

If there was a Targaryen girl married into the Lannister main line, it would've probably happened long ago.

Or, Joanna's mother. (credit to maidenandwarrior for that addition) And I'm not sure if the Lannisters would brag about marrying the feeble-witted daughter of a drunkard who died of a pox. Especially after that daughter was passed over in the succession and possibly disinherited.

[TheCrannogDweller]

Already posted the major battles, pages back. That's my opinion, deal with it.

Well, if you go by the number of battles he took part in, yes, Robert is number one - he fought in all of them.

But then again, so did some of his stormlander bannermen, too. Does that give them claim of conquest?

My point is not about fighting - it's about commanding. And yes, if you go by the numbers, Robert did command in 4 of the 6 battles, but let's remember that 3 of them were small and the 4th he lost.

Or, Joanna's mother. (credit to maidenandwarrior for that addition) And I'm not sure if the Lannisters would brag about marrying the feeble-witted daughter of a drunkard who died of a pox. Especially after that daughter was passed over in the succession and possibly disinherited.

Feeble witted Targaryen is still a connection to the Royal family. It's not something you try to forget.

[J. Stargaryen]

Well, if you go by the number of battles he took part in, yes, Robert is number one - he fought in all of them.

But then again, so did some of his stormlander bannermen, too. Does that give them claim of conquest?

My point is not about fighting - it's about commanding. And yes, if you go by the numbers, Robert did command in 4 of the 6 battles, but let's remember that 3 of them were small and the 4th he lost.

Feeble witted Targaryen is still a connection to the Royal family. It's not something you try to forget.

Maybe they didn't feel like bragging up a family marriage to a short bus reject dragon.

Also, the connection to the royal family doesn't count for much if she was disinherited. The Lannisters are one of the most prestigious houses in the 7K. Marrying that Targ wouldn't have exactly enhanced their reputation.

You know, they might not have even wanted the marriage in the first place. Egg might have just been setting his niece up for a nice lifestyle. If you can't be a princess, the next best thing is to marry into the richest family in Westeros.

Cersei used to call Joanna's brother, Stafford, Uncle Dolt. Maybe he took after his mother? For that matter, Tyrion might have taken after Daeron himself. The two drunken whore mongers are practically peas in a pod. A Targaryen connection through Joanna might also explain why she freaked when Cersei and Jaime were caught together. And a Targ relation might even explain, on a thematic level, the Mad King's attraction to Joanna. Just some food for thought.

[Sansa_Stark]

Robert's bastards were killed because, despite being bastards, they still had royal blood via Robert. Cersei's brood had no royal blood, as they were only Lannisters, and she was the Queen Consort. Whether Robert was king because he was a Targaryen heir, or because he killed Targaryens is a matter of opinion, I guess. That is to say, whatever constitutes royal blood in people's minds, it flowed through Robert's veins

Not necessarily true. There are the A+J theories to start with, but also a lot of the speculation surrounding the Surprising Lannister Ancestor to be revealed in the world book has focused on Targaryens. It's even possible that it was a specifically disinherited or passed over member of the Targs. Meaning dragon blood but no royalty. I lean towards Daeron the Drunkard's feeble-witted daughter myself if that's the case, but that's a topic for another thread.

It seems like there is some idea that whoever sits on the IT presumes to rule, but I'm not certain how hard and fast that rule is.

Actually its entirely possible that Cersei had Robert's bastards killed, cuz she's a spiteful bitch.

[ckal]

I don't know if it's crackpot, but Harrold Hardyng and Ser Daemon Sand are described almost the same way - dimples when smiling, sandy brown hair, blue eyes.

Sandy brown hair is also something that Daeron the Drunken had, and Ser Daemon has a strong jaw, something that Baelor Breakspear had, and a Targaryen/Valyrian name. Daemon may be a descendant of Daenerys, sister of Daeron II.

So, these characteristics may tell us about Targaryen blood - Harry the Heir shows some Targaryen traits, which strengthens the fact that Arryns have dragon blood.

Oh come on. So anyone with sandy brown hair or a strong jaw has Targaryen blood? That is utterly ridiculous.

[kiasyd]

I don't have a Kindle or my books handy, but didn't Jaime suggest Ned might claim the throne when Ned found him in the throne room after Jaime killed Aerys?

Yes, and it's a great passage for this particular discussion. Probably will add more questions than answers, though.

"Tell them the Mad King is dead," he commanded. "Spare all those who yield and hold them captive."

"Shall I proclaim a new king as well?" Crakehall asked, and Jaime read the question plain: Shall it be your father, or Robert Baratheon, or do you mean to try to make a new dragonking? He thought for a moment of the boy Viserys, fled to Dragonstone, and of Rhaegar's infant son Aegon, still in Maegor's with his mother. A new Targaryen king, and my father as Hand. How the wolves will howl, and the storm lord choke with rage. For a moment he was tempted, until he glanced down again at the body on the floor, in its spreading pool of blood. His blood is in both of them, he thought. "Proclaim who you bloody well like," he told Crakehall. Then he climbed the Iron Throne and seated himself with his sword across his knees, to see who would come to claim the kingdom. As it happened, it had been Eddard Stark.

You had no right to judge me either, Stark.

It is also interesting to note that Jaime doesn't mention the Arryns complaining of a new dragonking. It doesn't mean much, I'm sure, but is interesting nonetheless.

[Anath]

What reason would have Aegon to marry Aenys to a Stark? The North was the only kingdom that actually surrendered - and that's even if we take into account the rather unusual way Visenya achieved the Arryns' surrender. I'd think that if there was no bad blood between Aegon and one of his new Lord Paramounts, it would be Lord Stark.

At this point, a political marriage for Aenys would make more sense if the bride was a lady from one of the Houses who opposed the Targaryens and took gaping wounds in the form of people and lands. The relations with the Starks would have been peaceful enough. A daughter of Aegon and Rhaenys makes more sense as Lady Stark than a Stark girl as Princess of Dragonstone. Or a later marriage between the Houses.

Do we know for sure that Jon Arryn descends from the same branch Rhaenyra's mother descended? It might be that the main branch had died out and Jon was a scion of a minor one.

[lojzelote]

I had what may have been a eureka moment, while posting in the "king's blood" thread a few minutes ago. At issue was whether king's blood had any real power, and I rattled off houses into which House Targaryen married to show that even their blood has been pretty widespread.

One of the reasons that Rhaenyra's claim was attractive was that, in addition to being Viserys I's oldest child and heir, she supposedly had more Targaryen blood than her Hightower half-siblings. Which suggests that the Targaryens had married into the Arryns at some point previously and that Rhaenyra had Targaryen lineage from both her father and her mother. Meaning, assuming direct ancestry from that Targaryen-Arryn line, Jon Arryn also would have had Targaryen ancestry.

I think we can also reasonably say that Robert's real claim to the throne was via conquest, and him having a Targaryen grandmother was just crossing the legal Ts and dotting the legal Is. Robert tells Ned that Ned or Jon should have been king, to which Ned replies that Robert "had the better claim," which can plausibly be taken to refer to the legal claim, not the conquest claim. Not that Robert had the only claim (i.e. not that Robert was the only Targaryen descendant of the three), just that his claim was better.

As I said above, you can sort of work backward to see that Jon Arryn could also have plausibly had a claim if the Targaryens married into the Arryns (which, again, is suggested when discussing Rhaenyra). But it also suggests that Ned had a claim. However, because Robert was descended from a line closer in proximity to the modern time, he would have had the "better" claim.

I've already thought that perhaps Aenys I's wife was a Stark. If they did the reciprocal marriage thing, then perhaps a Targaryen woman married into the Starks as well. Or a Targaryen woman could have married into the Starks, and Aenys I had a non-Stark wife (we know he didn't marry a sister). The northerners do mention that it was "the dragons" they "married," which is an oddly specific word. The Starks and Arryns also would have been very attractive political alliances, given that they were the two kingdoms that gave in peacefully.

The implications of this if it's true (and people have brought it up before; it's really Rhaenyra's Targaryen-Arryn ancestry that made me connect the dots and move it from "loose theory" to "pretty likely") are a mystery, but it's worth thinking about. If nothing else, there are four Stark wargs out there with a drop o' dragon blood in them. ;) (And of course one with quite more than a drop.)

Hey Appple, do you think it is possible that Dany is a latent skinchanger, who will pull Dany Thousandskins and warg all three dragons, the Stark kids' direwolves, Set Pounce, Balerion the Black Cat, Hodor, Stranger, etc. etc.? :drunk:

I believe(d) that Ned was suggesting that while he has a claim by conquest, Robert's claim is more legitimate because of his blood relation to the Targs. But this post:

raises very interesting points. It is pretty interesting to think that these bloodlines have mixed before.

One thing I'd mention, as I did earlier in Aenys' wife thread, is that it makes Jon not all that special - seeing that any offspring of such a Stark Targ alliance can be considered to be a union of ice and fire. So all that sets him apart is the prophecy by the Ghost of High Heart. :)

The implications of this can be great. The view that so far we consider him "the balance" in the contending equation of ice and fire - may have to be discarded. He might indeed be TPtwP as per GHH prophecy, and Dany will be AAR. Bran may be LH. This intermingling of blood may even provide "the element" for Bran to actually warg a dragon; or for that matter any other of his sibling.

Also we must consider now that Bloodraven is also related to all the Stark children and not just Jon. :)

Oh gal, everybody is related to everybody. As the Blackwoods are Riverlanders, they certainly must have married with the Tullys at some point, so the Stark kids would be his distant kin anyway. And since the Blackwoods still keep the old gods and all, there is also a possibility there was a Stark-Blackwood match, at least after the kigdoms were united. People point out the Jon - Bloodraven paralel because they're both half-Valyrian/half-First Men (or better to say, the old gods keeping FM), not because they're distantly related in some way. And of all direwolves, only Ghost is an albino like Bloodraven. :P :)

[J. Stargaryen]

Actually its entirely possible that Cersei had Robert's bastards killed, cuz she's a spiteful bitch.

That was part of the equation, but Robert's bastards were a danger for a couple of different reasons: they all had Robert's black hair and blue eyes, which Cersei's children lacked, and they all had better claims as Robert's heirs than Joff, Tommen and Myrcella.

---

Concerning the feeble-witted daughter scenario, a couple of other things come to mind.

Tywin's marriage to Joanna, with her alleged Targ blood, could have been a move by Tywin in the game of thrones:

• Get in tight with the king.

Marry wife with recent Targ blood.

Have a daughter with this woman.

Marry that daughter to the crown prince.

Seat grandson on the IT.

In case you think Tywin wasn't interested in playing the game, or that he didn't like his chances, keep these things in mind: Joanna told Jaime in a dream that Tywin dreamed his daughter would be queen.¹ Tywin promised Cersei when she was six or seven that she would marry Rhaegar.² Tywin was confident enough of the match to tell Genna before the Tourney at Lannisport in 276 that the betrothal would be announced at the end of the tourney.³ (2 is a mixture of both, imo.)

While all of this would have been possible even if Joanna didn't have dragon blood, it would probably be more likely if she did.

1)

“We all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.”

- AFfC, Jaime VII

2)

When she was just a little girl, her father had promised her that she would marry Rhaegar. She could not have been more than six or seven. “Never speak of it, child,” he had told her, smiling his secret smile that only Cersei ever saw. “Not until His Grace agrees to the betrothal. It must remain our secret for now.”

- AFfC, Cersei V

3)

“Her aunt had confided that truth to her before the tourney. “You must be especially beautiful,” Lady Genna told her, fussing with her dress, “for at the final feast it shall be announced that you and Prince Rhaegar are betrothed.”

- AFfC, Cersei V

[WeaselPie]

Yes, and it's a great passage for this particular discussion. Probably will add more questions than answers, though.

It is also interesting to note that Jaime doesn't mention the Arryns complaining of a new dragonking. It doesn't mean much, I'm sure, but is interesting nonetheless.

thanks for posting the passage.....excellent.... I interpret it a few ways, one of which I just deleted

ETA since we are discussing Targ/Stark unions from the past, which Targ's would have Stark blood?

Considering several generations of Stark wives/mothers (including Ned's own) haven't been identified, I wouldn't be surprised at all if one was a Targ.

[J. Stargaryen]

"His (Aerys') blood is in both of them (Robert and Ned)".... an excellent catch! thanks for posting the passage

ETA since we are discussing Targ/Stark unions from the past, which Targ's would have Stark blood?

This is interesting and I wouldn't rule it out as a possible misdirection by GRRM, but I feel like the language indicates Viserys and Aegon: His [Aerys] blood is in both of them. While Aerys and certainly Robert share blood, I don't know if you'd say that Aerys's blood is in Robert. Otoh, that is a correct statement to make regarding a parent and child.

[WeaselPie]

This is interesting and I wouldn't rule it out as a possible misdirection by GRRM, but I feel like the language indicates Viserys and Aegon: His [Aerys] blood is in both of them. While Aerys and certainly Robert share blood, I don't know if you'd say that Aerys's blood is in Robert. Otoh, that is a correct statement to make regarding a parent and child.

Yes I first read that as the blood being in Vis and Aegon, but, as always, a little ambiguous twist in meaning is sometimes interesting to think about (to consider he meant Robert and Ned). That's why I had already edited my statement while you were responding to it...seems he was referring to Vis and Aegon.

[Chaircat Meow]

If Jon at least had Targaryen blood, this supports the idea Robert's claim was based on blood, not conquest. Usually, Ned's 'better claim' comment is taken, by supporters of the conquest theory, to imply Ned had a claim too, which could only be via conquest (given it is assumed he has no Targ blood), and so therefore Robert's was better because of his blood, but that he had a claim based on conquest anyway like Jon and Ned.

If Jon and Ned both had a very weak claim by blood, then Ned's better claim comment can refer just to Robert's greater proximity to the Targaryen line of succession, thus negating the idea conquest was ever being used to 'claim' the throne.

[King Jaime Lannister]

How would this advance the story? If GRRM had this in mind from the beginning, when he wrote the, "But you had a better claim.," why would he wait until a 20 years later to reveal it by saying that an Arryn had some Targ blood?

IMO the mixing of Valyrian blood and the blood of the Old gods should be a very rare thing in the story, reserved for blood raven and R+L=J.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Ned didn't participate in the fighting of the Sack or the Siege of Storms End. Robert literally fought in every major battle (and took no part in the Sack or Siege), while Ned fought in half of them and was only present for the conclusion of the Sack and Siege. Half the war was Robert kicking ass and slamming babes without the other rebel lords. He clearly had the better "conquest claim". I guess it's easy to forget the effort Robert actually put into the first half of the war, but Ned certainly didn't match him.

This is what I've suspected Ned meant with the "better claim" comment. I'd go even further and speculate that when Robert killed Rhaegar, his claim to the throne trumped everyone's ( in Ned's opinion).

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I don't really get into the bloodline thing and all the family trees out there. But, that being said, is this why LF had Cersei send him the tapestries? I mean something is up with those, and seeing the comment on Harry the Heir,......? Is it to prove Harry's ancestry? Sorry if I got off topic.