Dunk and Egg and Sansa Theory

[Veltigar]

There are no DNA tests in Westeros. That is just what Aegon is claiming. Afterall when Dany was in Essos some guy told her they saw a Lyseni prostitute that looked exactly like her.

Who knows what Aerion might have left behind in Lys :p (hint hint Serra)

[para]

This.

But it is not just the family names that are interesting but the given names as well.

The Baratheon champion was Lyonel Baratheon. Adn the Lyonel name is obviously comes from lion.

It is interesting that the name of the Tyrell champion is Leo as well, which is associated with lion too. Hmm Well the Tyrells are like the Lannisters they say.

And there is Tybolt Lannister, with the typical Lannister Ty- name. Which obviously has Tytos, Tywin, Tyrion. And Tyrion too has the typical Lannister name.

Maybe it is typical among the Hardyngs but the champion Humphrey Hardyng has the same HH name as Harry Hardyng.

And we have Valarr Targaryen. Vallar sounds like a typical Targ name.

It's a bit of mix between sympbolism (lions) and actually similar name. It all kind of makes sense. Until you reach the one that hasn't been connected to Sansa yet. Because Valar isn't a typical Targaryen name. It sound vaguely Valyrian but a typical Targaryen name is one that has been already in use. Valar hasn't. And to make matters worse, it doesn't refer symbolically or in any other way to the only two potential Targaryens left.... Unless someone is supportive of Varys or Val as potential Targaryen and Sansa's next suitor. But that one is too cracked to resemble a pot.

I think Valar is intentionally non-specific. If GRRM planted this list intentionally (and if he didn't, it is meaningless), he did it to vex us readers. But that so allows the possibility that he might not just wanted to obscure the specific identity of the Targaryen (which he had more than one reason to do if it wasn't Aegon*) but that the intent was to mess with us.

*if this list is a sincere spoiler/hint by GRRM, implying the other possible candidate (Jon) would do more than hint at Sansa's suitors. It would confirm R+L=J.

So basically these are the options:

1. It's a coincidence (But why the inclusion of the obscure Hardyng along so many great names?)

2. GRRM is messing with us and there will be no Targaryen suitor for Sansa

3. GRRM wrote this as an honest hint for a Targaryen suitor for Sansa.

3.a The identity of the Targaryen is obscured with the because it would be too easy if Aegon could be clearly associated with Valar.

3.b Valar can be easily identified as Aegon because of VArys + rhaegAR (plus additional L)... (Yeah not sure about that dream logic.)

3.b.2 Valar must mean Aegon because if meant Jon it would confirm R+L=J (not sure that logic checks out either)

3.c The identity of the Targaryen is obscured because it's Jon and any hint would confirm R+L=J

3.d GRRM is messing with us.

To be honest I think it either option 2 or 3.d. But I think it is impossible to read that hint deeper than "potential Targaryen suitor for Sansa". To mean something, it has to be intentional and if it intentional, it might be a trap. It certainly shouldn't be anything that I would look forward to without trepidation. After all, look at the guys represented by the list: Joffrey, Willas (the list implies that he is really just a Lannister with flowers), aspiring misogynist and forced husband #1 Tyrion, and Harry "Robert Baratheon 2.0" Hardyng. What a choice selection of suitors! I mean, it does appear like the sort of club where you have to be quite the douchecanoe to be able to join.

[Silverin]

Other positions don't matter if it's not the one Arianne or Doran wants.

The position of the Hand can be more powerful than the postion of the Queen.

There are no DNA tests in Westeros. That is just what Aegon is claiming. Afterall when Dany was in Essos some guy told her they saw a Lyseni prostitute that looked exactly like her.

Arianne was sent to Aegon to see wether he is a dragon. She is not even sure Connigton is really in Westeros, all they heard are the rumor. So it is not just Aegon she is confirming but Connigton as well. If she will be able to confirm Connigtons identity, who is known by people, she might more willing to believe that Aegon is real.

And we know, that Connigton is the real thing. And there are people who know him.

Again if Arianne sends back that Aegon is dragon Dorne will support him. That is her mission. Not to negtioate to marry him. It is possible of course that she tells Aegon she will only send that word back to Doran if he marries her. But her mission is simply that, if she send that he is a dragon Dorne will support him. So yes, in the case of Aegon Dorne showed that they might willing to back him even without marriage, since Doran didn't say anything about marriage to Arienne, all he sent her was to confirm his identity.

[ARYa_Nym]

The position of the Hand can be more powerful than the postion of the Queen.

Arianne would have more power ruling Dorne than she would being queen of Westeros but it doesn't mean that she won't foolishly covet it due her jealousy and ambition.

Arianne was sent to Aegon to see wether he is a dragon. She is not even sure Connigton is really in Westeros, all they heard are the rumor. So it is not just Aegon she is confirming but Connigton as well. If she will be able to confirm Connigtons identity, who is known by people, she might more willing to believe that Aegon is real.

And we know, that Connigton is the real thing. And there are people who know him.

Again if Arianne sends back that Aegon is dragon Dorne will support him. That is her mission. Not to negtioate to marry him. It is possible of course that she tells Aegon she will only send that word back to Doran if he marries her. But her mission is simply that, if she send that he is a dragon Dorne will support him. So yes, in the case of Aegon Dorne showed that they might willing to back him even without marriage, since Doran didn't say anything about marriage to Arienne, all he sent her was to confirm his identity.

She's not there to confirm but just to check the situation out. If he has no irrefutable proof then she can't confirm anything. Confirm it with what proof? He looked like one to me?

[Northernmonkey]

It's a bit of mix between sympbolism (lions) and actually similar name. It all kind of makes sense. Until you reach the one that hasn't been connected to Sansa yet. Because Valar isn't a typical Targaryen name. It sound vaguely Valyrian but a typical Targaryen name is one that has been already in use. Valar hasn't. And to make matters worse, it doesn't refer symbolically or in any other way to the only two potential Targaryens left.... Unless someone is supportive of Varys or Val as potential Targaryen and Sansa's next suitor. But that one is too cracked to resemble a pot.

I think Valar is intentionally non-specific. If GRRM planted this list intentionally (and if he didn't, it is meaningless), he did it to vex us readers. But that so allows the possibility that he might not justwanted to obscure the specific identity of the Targaryen (which he had only reason to do if it wasn't Aegon*) but that the intent was to mess with us.

*if this list is a sincere spoiler/hint by GRRM, implying the other possible candidate (Jon) would do more than hint at Sansa's suitors. It would confirm R+L=J.

So basically these are the options:

1. It's a coincidence (But why the inclusion of the obscure Hardyng along some many great names?)

2. GRRM is messing with us and there will be no Targaryen suitor for Sansa

3. GRRM wrote this is an honest hint for a Targaryen suitor for Sansa.

3.a The identity of the Targaryen is obscured with the because it would be too easy if Aegon could be clearly associated with Valar.

3.b Valar can be easily identified as Aegon because of VArys + rhaegAR (plus additional L)... (Yeah not sure about that dream logic.)

3.b.2 Valar must mean Aegon because if meant Jon it would confirm R+L=J and GRRM wouldn't do that, not even for a spot of fun

3.c The identity of the Targaryen is obscured because it's Jon and any hint would confirm R+L=J

3.d GRRM is messing with us.

To be honest I think it either option 2 or 3.d. But I think it is impossible to read that hint deeper than "potential Targaryen suitor for Sansa". To mean something, it has to be intentional and if it intentional, it might be a trap. It certainly shouldn't be anything that I would look forward to without trepidation. After all, look at the guys represented by the list: Joffrey, Willas (the list implies that he is really just a Lannister with flowers), aspiring misogynist and forced husband #1 Tyrion, and Harry "Robert Baratheon 2.0" Hardyng. What a choice selection of suitors! I mean, it does appear like the sort of club where you have to be quite the douchecanoe to be able to join.

I think you're looking too far into it.

We know that the Targaryan is Aegon because he's the only current Targaryan around. Jon doesn't count because he's a Snow, and we know that the pattern uses the given name (that's why Joffrey is a Baratheon).

[NotSoSilentSister]

There are no DNA tests in Westeros. That is just what Aegon is claiming. Afterall when Dany was in Essos some guy told her they saw a Lyseni prostitute that looked exactly like her.

Well, obviously they'll have to decide whether they consider Aegon legit or not. That's the whole point of Arianne's mission. If they decide he's not legit, they won't support him anyway, even if he were willing to marry Arianne.

[Veltigar]

Well, obviously they'll have to decide whether they consider Aegon legit or not. That's the whole point of Arianne's mission. If they decide he's not legit, they won't support him anyway, even if he were willing to marry Arianne.

hmmm, I don't know if it looks like Faegon has an actual shot at winning the conflict they might be persuaded to marry him anyway. Especially if word about Quentyn's demise has reached them by them.

[ARYa_Nym]

Well, obviously they'll have to decide whether they consider Aegon legit or not. That's the whole point of Arianne's mission. If they decide he's not legit, they won't support him anyway, even if he were willing to marry Arianne.

Not really. The Tyrells knew Joffrey wasn't legit yet supported him because they wanted Margaery to be queen.

They don't really have to choose one or the other. They can always have doubts. IMO the only person who won't is Connington because it is what he feels he needs to believe.

[Silverin]

She's not there to confirm but just to check the situation out. If he has no irrefutable proof then she can't confirm anything. Confirm it with what proof? He looked like one to me?

By confirming Connington.

Right now they think Connington might be fake. Confiring that Connington is real actually makes Aegons case much better

But again, how many times do I have to tell you. If she sends back a letter to Doran that Aegon is a dragon, then Dorne will support him. That was her mission. Doran friggin told her that.

Again it is possible that Arianne on her own will try to negotiate with Aegon to marry in exchange for sending that letter. But Doran did not ask that from her. He is willing to back him if Arianne sends that damn letter.

[ARYa_Nym]

By confirming Connington.

Right now they think Connington might be fake. Confiring that Connington is real actually makes Aegons case much better

But again, how many times do I have to tell you. If she sends back a letter to Doran that Aegon is a dragon, then Dorne will support him. That was her mission. Doran friggin told her that.

Again it is possible that Arianne on her own will try to negotiate with Aegon to marry in exchange for sending that letter. But Doran did not ask that from her. He is willing to back him if Arianne sends that damn letter.

You're assuming that she will do that.

Connington makes it better but it is not proof. Connington could have been duped as well (he was).

I didn't say that Arianne will try for it the first time they meet. This can happen later on.

[para]

I think you're looking too far into it.

We know that the Targaryan is Aegon because he's the only current Targaryan around. Jon doesn't count because he's a Snow, and we know that the pattern uses the given name (that's why Joffrey is a Baratheon).

Well, you imply that Jon will never be a Targaryen. You might be right but if you are not (the in-depth discussion of the likelihood of both possibilities is pinned up-board), he is an option to be the last suitor. To dismiss him outright because he is a Snow right (as if no reclaiming of his potential birth right could change that), would also kick out Aegon, who was Young Griff until five seconds ago when he reclaimed his birth right.)

[NotSoSilentSister]

We know that the Targaryan is Aegon because he's the only current Targaryan around. Jon doesn't count because he's a Snow, and we know that the pattern uses the given name (that's why Joffrey is a Baratheon).

Jon's a Snow now. For all we know he might be already legitimized at the point he starts courting Sansa.

But my money is on Aegon as well, mainly for reasons of personal taste, admittedly. (I'm getting sentimental whenever I read passages of Jon and Sansa viewing each other as brother and sister; I think the Westermark effect should be in full force and make a marriage feel too incestuos; I also don't like the implications for two of my favourite characters, since all the other courtships in the pattern were doomed, and courtships in Hedge Knight didn't amount to anything either, and that might mean that one of those two dies.)

[Northernmonkey]

Well, you imply that Jon will never be a Targaryen. You might be right but if you are not (the in-depth discussion of the likelihood of both possibilities is pinned up-board), he is an option to be the last suitor. To dismiss him outright because he is a Snow right (as if no reclaiming of his potential birth right could change that), would also kick out Aegon, who was Young Griff until five seconds ago when he reclaimed his birth right.)

Aegon was only using Young Griff as an alias, he was still Aegon Targaryan really. I guess Jon could become a legitimised Targaryan, but I think it's irrelevant anyway because there's no way he's going to marry Sansa. I really don't think GRRM will go down that slightly creepy road.

If this is a clue, it's almost certainly referncing Aegon.

[Silverin]

You're assuming that she will do that.

Connington makes it better but it is not proof. Connington could have been duped as well (he was).

The thing is you cannot anyway compeletly confirm Aegon.

So Doran or Arienne obviously won't have sure profe like that.

That is why Connington is so importnat, because compared to Aegon his identity can be confirmed. There are people who knew him. And just like Aegon he faked his death as well.

That is why Randyl Tarly was obviously tensed when they received the first news about them, because if Connington is real that is a real problem. If Conningtons identity is confirmed by people who knew him, if he is indeed the real one then in they eyes of others Aegon has a way higher chance seen as the real one as well. Since Connington was very loyal to Rhaegar. Of course he was very possibly fooled by Varys, but he can make a very compelling argument, since he himself completly believes Aegon is the real thing.

Another interesting thing is the Septa Lemore/Ashara theory. If she is indeed Ashara, then Aegons identity can be even more solid in the eyes of others, since you have one of Rhaegars most loyal men, and one of Elias bestfriend claiming Aegon is the real thing.

[TheUnknownTargaryen]

I think the Targaryen is Jon... yes him and sansa

[The guy from the Vale]

It's a bit of mix between sympbolism (lions) and actually similar name. It all kind of makes sense. Until you reach the one that hasn't been connected to Sansa yet. Because Valar isn't a typical Targaryen name. It sound vaguely Valyrian but a typical Targaryen name is one that has been already in use. Valar hasn't. And to make matters worse, it doesn't refer symbolically or in any other way to the only two potential Targaryens left.... Unless someone is supportive of Varys or Val as potential Targaryen and Sansa's next suitor. But that one is too cracked to resemble a pot.

I think Valar is intentionally non-specific. If GRRM planted this list intentionally (and if he didn't, it is meaningless), he did it to vex us readers. But that so allows the possibility that he might not just wanted to obscure the specific identity of the Targaryen (which he had more than one reason to do if it wasn't Aegon*) but that the intent was to mess with us.

*if this list is a sincere spoiler/hint by GRRM, implying the other possible candidate (Jon) would do more than hint at Sansa's suitors. It would confirm R+L=J.

So basically these are the options:

1. It's a coincidence (But why the inclusion of the obscure Hardyng along so many great names?)

2. GRRM is messing with us and there will be no Targaryen suitor for Sansa

3. GRRM wrote this as an honest hint for a Targaryen suitor for Sansa.

3.a The identity of the Targaryen is obscured with the because it would be too easy if Aegon could be clearly associated with Valar.

3.b Valar can be easily identified as Aegon because of VArys + rhaegAR (plus additional L)... (Yeah not sure about that dream logic.)

3.b.2 Valar must mean Aegon because if meant Jon it would confirm R+L=J (not sure that logic checks out either)

3.c The identity of the Targaryen is obscured because it's Jon and any hint would confirm R+L=J

3.d GRRM is messing with us.

To be honest I think it either option 2 or 3.d. But I think it is impossible to read that hint deeper than "potential Targaryen suitor for Sansa". To mean something, it has to be intentional and if it intentional, it might be a trap. It certainly shouldn't be anything that I would look forward to without trepidation. After all, look at the guys represented by the list: Joffrey, Willas (the list implies that he is really just a Lannister with flowers), aspiring misogynist and forced husband #1 Tyrion, and Harry "Robert Baratheon 2.0" Hardyng. What a choice selection of suitors! I mean, it does appear like the sort of club where you have to be quite the douchecanoe to be able to join.

We know the meaning of the Valyrian word Valar: "(Every) Man"*. Hence, Valarr Targaryen was "Everyman Targaryen".

* Reductionist argument: Valar morghulis means "All men must die", Valar dohaeris means "All men must serve". Hence Valar means something along the lines of "All Men", "Every Man" or simply "Man". In addition, "Valyria" looks like it is also based on the same root, which would mean that Valyria claims to be (in Valyrian), the home of all men.

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

We know the meaning of the Valyrian word Valar: "(Every) Man"*. Hence, Valarr Targaryen was "Everyman Targaryen".

* Reductionist argument: Valar morghulis means "All men must die", Valar dohaeris means "All men must serve". Hence Valar means something along the lines of "All Men", "Every Man" or simply "Man". In addition, "Valyria" looks like it is also based on the same root, which would mean that Valyria claims to be (in Valyrian), the home of all men.

ASoIaF History Lessons 101.

[NotSoSilentSister]

Yep. Valarr Targaryan pretty much sounds like Generic Targaryan to me. Which might fit Aegon pretty well, since at least optically, he really fits the bill.

[ARYa_Nym]

The thing is you cannot anyway compeletly confirm Aegon.

So Doran or Arienne obviously won't have sure profe like that.

That is why Connington is so importnat, because compared to Aegon his identity can be confirmed. There are people who knew him. And just like Aegon he faked his death as well.

That is why Randyl Tarly was obviously tensed when they received the first news about them, because if Connington is real that is a real problem. If Conningtons identity is confirmed by people who knew him, if he is indeed the real one then in they eyes of others Aegon has a way higher chance seen as the real one as well. Since Connington was very loyal to Rhaegar. Of course he was very possibly fooled by Varys, but he can make a very compelling argument, since he himself completly believes Aegon is the real thing.

Another interesting thing is the Septa Lemore/Ashara theory. If she is indeed Ashara, then Aegons identity can be even more solid in the eyes of others, since you have one of Rhaegars most loyal men, and one of Elias bestfriend claiming Aegon is the real thing.

Exactly so why say she's going to tell Doran that he's real? How would she know for sure?

It doesn't mean people will take it as fact. Stannis for example has more repute and he said that Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella aren't my nieces and nephews. His claim was believed by some and wasn't by others.

Fact is they may believe. They may still have doubts. They may even think he's fake. Arianne can still want a marriage.

[Silverin]

Exactly so why say she's going to tell Doran that he's real? How would she know for sure?

It doesn't mean people will take it as fact. Stannis for example has more repute and he said that Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella aren't my nieces and nephews. His claim was believed by some and wasn't by others.

Fact is they may believe. They may still have doubts. They may even think he's fake. Arianne can still want a marriage.

I said that as well in my previous posts....

I wrote it, that Arianne might decide that she will negotiate with him about a marraige. But again she doesn't need to, in order for Dorne to back him. It will be from her own ambitions. I never argued she might doesn't press for marriage. I argued with the statement that that is the only way Dorne would support Aegon.

And the thing is a real Connington is much more dangerous than Stannis spreading that Joff, Tommen and Myrcella is illegitimate. A real Connington is trouble, because if he is real, then there is a bigger chance the boy is real too. He was a Rhaegar loyalist, and people idolised Rahegar, he could do no wrong and was the perfect prince. A real Connington + wanting to believe that the son of the perfect Rhaegar is comming, is actually a very serious trouble. Again that is why Tarly was tensed up when he heard about the news.