Valonqar theory

[Mithras]

Here's Maggy's valonqar prophecy as it is quoted at http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Maggy:

I think this points to Stannis for a number of reasons.

1.) The valonqar has to be male. Even if the word "valonqar" itself is gender-neutral, Maggy herself says that he "shall wrap his hands" around her neck.

2.) The valonqar is likely related to someone about whom Maggy is prophesizing. Cersei contextualizes her prophecy by asking "Will the king and I have children?" and Maggy's response concerns them both: "Six-and-ten for him, and three for you." I think this means the valonqar has to be either a little brother of Cersei or a little brother of Robert (the king in question).

3.) The valonqar is probably not Tyrion or Jaime. It's probably not Tyrion because that's who Cersei thinks it'll be (and characters within stories are rarely right when they try to interpret prophecies and Cersei has been shown to be unfairly prejudiced against Tyrion throughout the books) and it's probably not Jaime because he doesn't have two hands available to wrap around her throat.

4.) The valonqar therefore has to be a little brother of Robert. Robert only has one little brother left now that Renly is dead: Stannis.

5.) Stannis has motive to want to see Cersei dead. With her (and her children) out of the picture, the crown will pass to him by all the laws of the Seven Kingdoms, regardless of whether or not people believe that Joff, Tommen and Myrcella were bastards.

6.) Stannis has the capacity to murder his opponents from great distances using Melisandre's magic. His shadowy form has already cut his own brother's throat and pushed Ser Courtnay Penrose from the battlements of Storm's End. Strangling doesn't seem much of a stretch should he set his sights on the Queen Regent.

7.) Okay, this part's a little bit out there, but bear with me: My guess for why Maggy used the Valyrian word "valonqar" as opposed to just saying "little brother" is that valonqar has extra meaning attached to it. Specifically, I think it means "royal little brother" or "little brother who is the heir to the king." Throughout Robert's entire reign he never actually had any legitimate children, therefore Stannis was technically always his heir.

From AAR to valonqar. The star of Stannis is fading away.

[Hard Hugh]

It's Robert Strong with Jamies hand

[King Viserys Targaryen IV]

Stannis is not younger than his other brothers but he does fit somehow

He is younger than Robert

From the Ice and Fire Wiki:

Stannis was born the second son to Steffon Baratheon and Cassana Estermont, the younger brother of Robert Baratheon and the older brother of Renly Baratheon

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Why do people think Tommen and Myrcella have to die before Cersei gets strangled ? Just because the author puts two sentences together does not imply one causes another.

Because the prophecy clearly stated that when Cersei's tears have drowned her is when she will be killed. So she will live to see all that she loves taken from her, and that includes her children. The timeline is laid out in the prophecy itself.

[RWHamel]

But it could mean, that she thinks they are dead, and not that they are actually dead.

[sotrain515]

But it could mean, that she thinks they are dead, and not that they are actually dead.

But Maggy specifically says "gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds". This part of her prophecy has already come mostly true: all three of Cersei's children have been crowned (at least I think Myrcella was crowned... I don't remember Arianne's AFFC chapters that well now) and Joff has already died.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

But it could mean, that she thinks they are dead, and not that they are actually dead.

Only problem with this is it's not likely anyone could fake both of their deaths and fool Cersei. The Sand Snakes might claim Myrcella died on the ship (sickness, attacked by pirates, etc.) but Tommen is right there. It would be hard to convince her of his death without a body.

But Maggy specifically says "gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds". This part of her prophecy has already come mostly true: all three of Cersei's children have been crowned (at least I think Myrcella was crowned... I don't remember Arianne's AFFC chapters that well now) and Joff has already died.

No, Arianne never got to crowning Myrcella, so two have been crowned and one has died. Tommen goes next if Margaery loses her trial.

[RWHamel]

Only problem with this is it's not likely anyone could fake both of their deaths and fool Cersei. The Sand Snakes might claim Myrcella died on the ship (sickness, attacked by pirates, etc.) but Tommen is right there. It would be hard to convince her of his death without a body.

She's right there now, but she might not be, when she's told that it happened.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

She's right there now, but she might not be, when she's told that it happened.

I see that, but she would still expect to see the body. I can see major denial in her future if something like this were to come up. Only seeing the body would prove it to her.

[Parizad]

But Maggy specifically says "gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds". This part of her prophecy has already come mostly true: all three of Cersei's children have been crowned (at least I think Myrcella was crowned... I don't remember Arianne's AFFC chapters that well now) and Joff has already died.

Myrcella was not actually crowned because the attempt failed by the betrayal of Dark Star

[Parizad]

I see that, but she would still expect to see the body. I can see major denial in her future if something like this were to come up. Only seeing the body would prove it to her.

:agree:

[Gneisenau]

But you can refer to females with male pronouns. For example you can say you can say "you guys" when referring to a group of women.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

You make a good case for Stannis but I think the parts of prophecy about the younger queen, then deaths of her children and cersei's death are related. So far Stannis does not provide any of these while LF has conspired to kill Joeffry, has Sansa and will kill Cersei and all her children who stand between him and the IT.

But Stannis did burn the leeches with kings blood in them calling for the deaths of the ursupers Robb, Balon, & Joffrey right? That did happen in both the books & the show didn't it? It runs together sometimes lol

[Lady Blizzardborn]

But you can refer to females with male pronouns. For example you can say you can say "you guys" when referring to a group of women.

Yes, in English. In Valyrian the only gender-neutral word we know of is the one for dragon. I'm not sure who the experts are in Valyrian but someone has posted on here (more than once, different threads though) that the experts have ruled valonqar to be gender-specific.

[sotrain515]

Yes, in English. In Valyrian the only gender-neutral word we know of is the one for dragon. I'm not sure who the experts are in Valyrian but someone has posted on here (more than once, different threads though) that the experts have ruled valonqar to be gender-specific.

My thoughts on this are that even if valonqar is gender-neutral (like the word for "Prince that was Promised" apparently, according to Maester Aemon), Maggy specifically says "the valonqar shall wrap his hands around your pale white throat". Maggy says it's going to be a dude in plain English (or plain Common Tongue if you prefer).

Tommen goes next if Margaery loses her trial.

Whoa, maybe I'm missing something obvious, but how do you figure? You think the Tyrells will have him killed in retaliation?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

My thoughts on this are that even if valonqar is gender-neutral (like the word for "Prince that was Promised" apparently, according to Maester Aemon), Maggy specifically says "the valonqar shall wrap his hands around your pale white throat". Maggy says it's going to be a dude in plain English (or plain Common Tongue if you prefer).

Whoa, maybe I'm missing something obvious, but how do you figure? You think the Tyrells will have him killed in retaliation?

Not have him killed, kill him. I can see Granny Tyrell feeding him cookies laced with sweetsleep. She might even eat some herself. Then Cersei can't kill the murderer because said murderer is already dead. Olenna already poisoned Joffrey. Since Tommen is such a sweetheart she'll give him an easier death. As that maester in the Vale told Sansa/Alayne, too much sweetsleep and you don't wake up again.

[Parizad]

But Stannis did burn the leeches with kings blood in them calling for the deaths of the ursupers Robb, Balon, & Joffrey right? That did happen in both the books & the show didn't it? It runs together sometimes lol

Yes Stannis did burn a leech but we don't know if that magic worked or not because LF actually put poison in a necklace and gave it to sansa which ended up killing Joff

[Parizad]

Not have him killed, kill him. I can see Granny Tyrell feeding him cookies laced with sweetsleep. She might even eat some herself. Then Cersei can't kill the murderer because said murderer is already dead. Olenna already poisoned Joffrey. Since Tommen is such a sweetheart she'll give him an easier death. As that maester in the Vale told Sansa/Alayne, too much sweetsleep and you don't wake up again.

It doesn't make sense for Tyrells to kill their own connection to the royal claim. If Tommen dies they cannot marry Marg to Myrcella!

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

It doesn't make sense for Tyrells to kill their own connection to the royal claim. If Tommen dies they cannot marry Marg to Myrcella!

Well if Marg loses her trial they aren't going to be marrying her to anyone. I doubt they will accept any Tyrell to marry any Lannister after that but their best bet would be to kill Tommen making Myrcella heir & try to marry her to Willa's or something.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Yes Stannis did burn a leech but we don't know if that magic worked or not because LF actually put poison in a necklace and gave it to sansa which ended up killing Joff

Right. I was just offering a counter argument to the "Stannis can't be the valonquar because he didn't kill Joffrey" comment. He could be. If it was his magic that killed Joff.