Nice things about Cersei

[lulu_pix]

She wasn't forced into the marriage as how she directly remembers being happy about the marriage until Robert called her Lyanna. Robert might have, but he have no insight if he did nor does that negate that Cersei never tried to work at the marriage.

Fair enough.

[Winnief]

From racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com....

A GREAT take on Cersei's weaknesses and strengths as a politician...

Well, I think we can see in this really brief encounter some of Cersei’s strengths and weaknesses become readily apparent, and she does have both (although that doesn’t prevent her from being a deeply flawed and ultimately doomed ruler).

To begin with, the Queen is actually quite good at using Lannister numbers and an understanding of strategic choke-points to her advantage – here, she uses the placement of Lannister gate guards (rather than Baratheon guards, a sign of how successfully she’s insinuated her independent military power into the royal court) to bring Arya before the King before Eddard could get hold of her, put himself as a parent in between his children and the court, or negotiate with King Robert in a private context. It’s a smart political move, and she makes the most of it, just as she will later when she uses her control over the throne room and the person of her son to preempt Eddard’s installation as Regent.

Cersei also has something of a gift for revisionist history, creating propaganda that puts herself on the moral high ground and demonizes her opponents, but it’s a limited one. Her story, that “this girl of yours attacked my son. Her and her butcher’s boy. That animal of hers tried to tear his arm off,” is clearly not believable. Arya’s story is clearly believed over the Queen of Westeros, and Cersei and her son are exposed to public mockery at the hands of Lord Renly, a major political rival. Likewise, when it comes later in the series to coming up with propaganda to smear Lord Stannis and later Margaery, her instant go-to suggestion of sibling incest is laughably bad. On the other hand, her initial story about the supposed treachery of Eddard Stark does succeed, at least initially – in part because for once, she goes with the simplest story.

I think the reason that her first foray into revisionist history fails is one of Cersei’s major weaknesses: she’s not good at understanding other’s motivations or figuring out their levers. She can rather crudely manipulate Robert – she succeeds in publicly shaming him into executing the wolf, she can use reverse psychology on him to try to get him into the melee at the Hand’s Tourney, and she can wheedle him into making Lannister appointments. However, Robert clearly sides against her in favor of Eddard when it comes to the punishment of Arya, and will do the same when it comes to taking Eddard back as Hand. Likewise, she shows no understanding of Eddard’s motivations at all in this chapter, or any understanding that people might be motivated by impulses other than self-interest, and has no way of dealing with Renly at all.

Secondly, Cersei displays a strangely vindictive, scorched-earth approach without thinking deeply about how her actions are syncing with her long-term motivations. It is simply not worth it to spark a vendetta against the Starks, who Cersei already has reason to fear the enmity of (due to her role in the attempted murder of Bran), over a bitten arm and a pet wolf. In the end, she succeeds in having Lady executed, but gains nothing by it – indeed Cersei potentially undid her endgame by alienating her son’s fiancee ...

I’d say Cersei’s biggest problem as a politician is that, because of the fact that her political gifts and education was completely neglected by her father (who curiously seems to have never really taught any of his children his own political skills) and the way that her own gender constraints have created this curdled resentment inside, she’s really only suited to destroy rather than to build. As a usurper, Cersei is remarkably successful – she manages to thoroughly cuckold her husband, eliminate a formally more powerful enemy in the Hand of the King, and install herself as Queen Regent of Westeros. However, once she finally gets to the position she’s been working for her entire life, she has no idea what to do. She immediately loses control over her son’s actions, turning the relative cold war in the Riverlands into an immediate war with the Starks, and has no plans for dealing with either Baratheon beyond trying to command her father to abandon the war effort against the Starks and allow them to pin his army against the walls of King’s Landing.

The most instructive moment comes when the immediate threat to the Iron Throne is crushed; once Tywin actually establishes an alliance with the Tyrells and Martells (a diplomatic coup of the ages), her immediate instinct is to destroy this coalition, because she has no understanding of allies on an equal footing, again because she can’t conceive of others as anything other than either servants or enemies. This quality follows through to her choice of subordinates, where Cersei instinctively avoids competence for fear of competing agendas, and instead somewhat subconsciously appoints incompetents and traitors who she feel won’t question her decisions.

In the end, though, I think the real question is what Cersei would have looked like as a politician if she had grown up in a context where her gender and her political interests weren’t in conflict. Because for all that the medieval society of Westeros is truly oppressive to women, there are survival strategies for women with Cersei’s interests and qualities that she never had access to at the decidedly woman-free Casterly Rock. Margaery and Olenna Tyrell make the cultural proscriptions of gender work in their favor, Arianne Martell and the Sand Snakes show that there are alternative cultural spaces in Westeros, even Catelyn Tully doesn’t let the frustrations she feels with gender-imposed limitations poison her life.

[The Wolves]

Yea but Tryion ends up killing Shae and Jamie ends up pushing Bran trieng to kill him (Thats fuked up)

Kids arent born fucked up they become fucked up hence the twincest relation

Lysa Catlyns sister also becomes fucked up

Sam atleas had his mother on his side

I used Tyrion as an example because Tyrion is not a fucked up person because his mother died and he grew up without her, he's a fucked up person because his father abused him and he has a dwarf complex or whatever.

Jaime is a disgusting monster he's another one who is not a victim of his environment he's worst than Cersei no better than a monster, their environment had little on who they became.

I also can't muster a lot of sympathy for Lysa and no I don't think she's a victim of her environment she went through what a lot of women went through(miscarriages), she still had a most excellent comfortable life.

Non of the Nobles except a few can claim to be the victim of their environment

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I can't see someone having sex with their brother, the King's Guard, so he is committing treason anew, on her wedding day is an indication of someone who intended...from then on...to faithful to their husband. Wedding Day. Not night before the wedding, which would still be bad, or week before the wedding. But hours before she marries Robert she's having sex with her brother.

She is just an awful person and always was, she would be awful if she had been born a peasant, a Targaryen, even Ned Stark could not have made her a good person, only possibly somewhat less awful, or she might have just added father killing to her resume at early age, LOL.

ITA, she is one awful piece of work, and always was and will be. I know some enjoy her POVs for the humor (and I do enjoy some of the funny things she thinks and says) but mostly.......her POVS leave me feeling like a need a shower, LOL

[lulu_pix]

I used Tyrion as an example because Tyrion is not a fucked up person because his mother died and he grew up without her, he's a fucked up person because his father abused him and he has a dwarf complex or whatever.

Jaime is a disgusting monster he's another one who is not a victim of his environment he's worst than Cersei no better than a monster, their environment had little on who they became.

I also can't muster a lot of sympathy for Lysa and no I don't think she's a victim of her environment she went through what a lot of women went through(miscarriages), she still had a most excellent comfortable life.

Non of the Nobles except a few can claim to be the victim of their environment

So you dont think his whoring around stems from deep seeted mommy issues??

But how did Jaime and Cersei become disgusting monsters??? they werent born that way.

You dont think lysa is a victom of her environment? having lost her vriginty to LF and then carry his baby and then tricked in to aborting that same baby and then forced in to a marriage to someone as old as her father? really you still dont think shese a victom??

No one is born fucked up, they become fucked up just becasue you lead a priveleged life doesnt mean you cant become the victom of psychological trauma.

[SkaggCannibal]

She believes in gender-equality. She's also courageous, strong-willed, proud, ambitious and beautiful, and she doesn't let people walk over her. Yeah I'm a Cersei-fan.

I like the theory where people think she will burn down KL but Jaime will valonqar her just before.

I like the theory were she succeeds in burning down KL, not the boring repeat of history-version.

[lulu_pix]

She believes in gender-equality. She's also courageous, strong-willed, proud, ambitious and beautiful, and she doesn't let people walk over her. Yeah I'm a Cersei-fan.

I like the theory were she succeeds in burning down KL, not the boring repeat of history-version.

Omg yes that would be amazing, I can totaly see her do that and having all the othe major pov character be like "WTF this biitch is craazy" lol

[Neilos]

There's a track by the Bloodhound Gang called 'the 10 best things about New Jersey'. It's just about 15 seconds of silence.

I expected this to be the thread equivalent of that.

[Sea Princess]

She is egocentric, egoistic, temperamental and irritating Dumb in her POV *doens't like her nor Cat*

[Minsc]

She believes in gender-equality.

Does she really believe in gender-equality?

[SkaggCannibal]

Omg yes that would be amazing, I can totaly see her do that and having all the othe major pov character be like "WTF this biitch is craazy" lol

Yes indead, she would also get her revenge on the Faith and on the people that mocked her, in that over-the-top Cersei way. It also fixes the problem of her being unable to rule since everyone saw her shame. She just burns everyone who saw it.

Does she really believe in gender-equality?

Probably not, but she does think women can be equaly capable as men and should be given responsabilities accordingly. I think it's a good thing.

[sapphire_lion]

She believes in gender-equality. She's also courageous, strong-willed, proud, ambitious and beautiful, and she doesn't let people walk over her. Yeah I'm a Cersei-fan.

She does not believe in any kind of equality. She's not courageous. She simply fails to consider the consequences of her actions and likes to put on airs. She's an ugly person on the inside and getting quite saggy on the outside. She walks over people and has them tortured to death.

Does she really believe in gender-equality?

Not even a little. She hates other women and only wants power only for herself.

[The Mother of The Others]

Yes indead, she would also get her revenge on the Faith and on the people that mocked her, in that over-the-top Cersei way. It also fixes the problem of her being unable to rule since everyone saw her shame. She just burns everyone who saw it.

Burning them for seeing her naked makes her nudity sound horrendous. But if she harvests all their eyes and pickles them in jars and sets the jars atop decorative columns in the throneroom, it'd be like the people were so enamored with her nudity that they wanted to see it always. Eh, somebody should succeed at burning that town or what's the point of having so many pyros hanging around.

[lulu_pix]

Yes indead, she would also get her revenge on the Faith and on the people that mocked her, in that over-the-top Cersei way. It also fixes the problem of her being unable to rule since everyone saw her shame. She just burns everyone who saw it.

Probably not, but she does think women can be equaly capable as men and should be given responsabilities accordingly. I think it's a good thing.

Ha :laugh: that would just be icing on top of the cake.

On a slightly unrelated note, I found the High sparrow to be smart and cunning and while he does the right thng by improsoning Cersei it still kind annoyed me in a "who the hell does this guy think he is" kind of way

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Yes indead, she would also get her revenge on the Faith and on the people that mocked her, in that over-the-top Cersei way. It also fixes the problem of her being unable to rule since everyone saw her shame. She just burns everyone who saw it.

LOL and OMG!! I can totally see the Cersei logic in that.

[lulu_pix]

She does not believe in any kind of equality. She's not courageous. She simply fails to consider the consequences of her actions and likes to put on airs. She's an ugly person on the inside and getting quite saggy on the outside. She walks over people and has them tortured to death.

Not even a little. She hates other women and only wants power only for herself.

I would she shows courage during her WOS, " I must not show fear" "I am Lioness" etc... cmon having to walk naked infront of a mob while still trying to maintaine your dignity is courageous. I know if I were in her place I would have ran all the way to the red keep or killed my self instead.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

There's a track by the Bloodhound Gang called 'the 10 best things about New Jersey'. It's just about 15 seconds of silence.

I expected this to be the thread equivalent of that.

Jersey jokes, how.............original.

[Mark Antony]

Jersey jokes, how.............original.

Isn't GRRM from Jersey :D

The whole site should bow down to the state :D

Plus The Sopranos C'Mon

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Isn't GRRM from Jersey :D

The whole site should bow down to the state :D

Plus The Sopranos C'Mon

Is GRRM from here, originally? I had no idea, I just know that he seems to camp out West now.

Besides, we have so many cool people from here it is hard to keep track. ;)

ETA: Maybe The Blood Hound Gang should have stuck to doggie style and The Discovery Channel?

[lulu_pix]

Burning them for seeing her naked makes her nudity sound horrendous. But if she harvests all their eyes and pickles them in jars and sets the jars atop decorative columns in the throneroom, it'd be like the people were so enamored with her nudity that they wanted to see it always. Eh, somebody should succeed at burning that town or what's the point of having so many pyros hanging around.

I love they way you think :lmao: