The "Everyone's going to die anyway" syndrome

[Janicia]

In both ASOIAF and the Wheel of Time, one thing that bothered me was the starvation of the masses that just seemed to go on and on. People in GOT shouldn't be having food problems yet. They just had an absurdly long summer, which they knew was going to be followed by a long winter. Kings Landing suffering during the siege made sense but its absurd that the Northeners have already been having food problems. The grinding sense that everybody is starving and freezing to death and nobody can do anything about it is really depressing to read.

I think it would be best for the show to skip Lady Stoneheart, but I don't feel all that strongly about it.

[boojam]

This does kind of mix the show and it's source , so that's ok here.

George has never been a writer of conventional fiction, but I would say he also is not an off-scale writer either.

One could pick hundreds of examples , take most of Shakespeare , for example, of total tragedy.

As a modern example, listed as the 2nd best novel of the second half of the 20th century (by the NY Times) Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian or the Evening Redness in the West (makes No Country for Old Men look like Dick and Jane have a nice birthday!)... I love the novel , have read it 3 times....

But I don't think even GRRM would consider Blood Meridian a 'bitter sweet novel'.... in fact some people don't know how to classify it!

A Song of Ice and Fire seems to 'shadow' conventional sword and sorcery fiction with a good dose of adult material and Shakespearean tragedy. As someone noted not that many 'greys' killed off even through 5 novels (tho some of those seem to shade more towards 'white' than grey).

I can't at this point tell how much 'bitter' there will be in the 'bitter-sweet'... for the conventional reader viewer he might push that into seeming like a caprice.

I don't know , kill off sympathetic character too soon, or at all, and that might not only hurt HBO's bottom like but also GRRM's book sales.

[The Reckoner]

The ever-present threat of death makes me enjoy my favorite characters even more.

[Seneti]

Not the way it works, I get to respond to this. You're taking a principled stand on something you don't understand. I'm still great friends with the guy to this day, we get in debates all the time. That's just one of the things we do as friends, because both of us like to be right. He was wrong about it being a spoiler, I was right. I told him information that was explicitly stated in the show. There was no way I was gonna sit back on that one when such a sure victory was in my sights, and I can guarantee you he wouldn't have either.

Also, this isn't even derailing the topic. I don't want to paint with a broad brush and say every viewer who has the "everyone's gonna die anyway" syndrome is a lazy show watcher, but from my experience that is the case. Like I said earlier, this is not a show that was scripted specifically for TV-- it takes a little extra work to keep up on it. Learn about the characters, read their bios on the Game of Thrones wiki, they only update it after the episodes air. No spoilers there. The show is most enjoyable when understand what's going on.

Just don't cling to willful ignorance and make me rue the day I agreed to be your roommate.

I should have added "feel free to PM me if you want to continue this discussion" to my last post, but since we're here: I guess we'll have to disagree on just what 'persistence for the sake of victory' is. You obviously consider it more of a sport. I think it's just rude and disrespectful. You're not going to persuade me otherwise and I don't want this thread to turn into a clash of personal philosophies (seen this way too many times when topics like religion or feminism are mentioned). So, like I said, feel free to PM me if you want to continue this discussion.

As for your argument about "lazy" GOT watchers:

You can watch this (and many other shows) without knowing all the details. A lot of people don't even know the names of many of the main characters beyond 'the little Stark girl' or 'the dragon lady' but they still enjoy it if they have a rough idea of what's going on. Nine months between seasons doesn't help either.

The thing is, without 'lazy' show watchers (let's call them 'casual viewers' maybe?) we simply wouldn't have the viewing figures and so not even have a show at all. It takes all sorts - not everyone wants to care exactly how many troops Robb had or exactly how everyone is related. But it's up to them - as long as they keep watching, great!

This. So much of this.

[Tixu Oty]

The ever-present threat of death makes me enjoy my favorite characters even more.

I think you're on to something there. Come to think of it, that's how I feel about it too. It makes every moment of the characters' journey more intense, in a way.

Also, I know that some good guys will survive in the end and carry on the memory of those who didn't, and that's enough of a happy ending to me. It doesn't feel at all like a story where the bad guys win in the end, or where everything is destroyed in the end.

[Joseph Nobles]

I think you're on to something there. Come to think of it, that's how I feel about it too. It makes every moment of the characters' journey more intense, in a way.

Also, I know that some good guys will survive in the end and carry on the memory of those who didn't, and that's enough of a happy ending to me. It doesn't feel at all like a story where the bad guys win in the end, or where everything is destroyed in the end.

When I think of bittersweet, I think of things like the ending of Rome, where Atia is watching the triumph of her son, but we know the Roman republic is over and the Empire has arrived. That realization blends with Atia who can only yearn for Mark Antony.

Or it's Ned looking at Jon Snow, proud even while remembering how he had to take him from his mother. That's the kind of ending we can expect: just like it began.

[Le Cygne]

For the OP, I found an upbeat quote from GRRM (and yes, he brings up LOTR!):

"Winter is coming... All men must die... But I don't necessarily think that makes it a pessimistic world, or perhaps not any more pessimistic than the real world that we live in. And we're here for a short time, and we should be conscious of our own mortality. But the important thing is love and compassion and empathy with other human beings is still possible. Laughter is still possible, even laughter in the face of death. The struggle to make the world a better place. We have things like war and murder and rape, horrible things that still exist in the world, but we don't have to accept them. We can fight the good fight, I think, the fight to eliminate those things. So there is darkness in the world, but I don't think we necessarily have to give way to despair. One of the great things Tolkien says in Lord of the Rings is despair is the ultimate crime, that's the ultimate failing of Denethor, the steward of Gondor, is that he despairs of ever being able to defeat Sauron. We should not despair, we should not go gentle into that good night. So winter is coming, but light the torches and drink the wine and gather around the fire, we can still defy it."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGA6JHNI-oo

[Rashtibram]

You can watch this (and many other shows) without knowing all the details. A lot of people don't even know the names of many of the main characters beyond 'the little Stark girl' or 'the dragon lady' but they still enjoy it if they have a rough idea of what's going on. Nine months between seasons doesn't help either.

The thing is, without 'lazy' show watchers (let's call them 'casual viewers' maybe?) we simply wouldn't have the viewing figures and so not even have a show at all. It takes all sorts - not everyone wants to care exactly how many troops Robb had or exactly how everyone is related. But it's up to them - as long as they keep watching, great!

I agree with this whole-heartedly. My Unsullied friends needed to be explained about 10 times who Roose Bolton was, even after the Red Wedding, and whenever he shows up anywhere upon watching select episodes again they still ask 'wait, who is that? he looks like the guy who stabbed whats-his-name.'

Just because we're die-hard fans who analyze and debate the significance of every detail in over 4000 pages/30 hours of television doesn't mean everybody should feel obligated to be. It's perfectly ok to just tune in on Sunday to watch "that show that's like lord of the rings with naked chicks": as long as it brings in more viewers, we should all be happy.

[Lionblood rider]

Oh please, I pray to every god the show does away with all the faux death/resurrections, if there's one think I didn't like at all about the last 2 books, is this "

Death and guest right … They don’t mean so much as they used to"

I hope they stop with that as well. It's unsettling always having to wonder, "I wonder if the BwB is close by" anytime one of these huge plot arcs comes around.

I'm okay with the dying of main characters. You can't have a score of armies led by contenders for the Iron Throne or vying for some crown, independence, or vengeance without some of them dying.

There's 100 moments of anticipation of deaths for every time it actually happens. That's the thrust of making any fantasy/adventure story exciting.

[Tyrion Hand of the King]

I think that the death aspect is pretty exaggerated. If you actually look at how many major character deaths there are it's really not as much as you'd think. My friend was pretty bummed out about the Red Wedding. I had to tell him Dany was still alive in the books to calm him down and give him a bit of hope. He says if Dany dies he's out.

I agree people who strictly watch the show majorly exaggerate the amount of deaths to main characters. I keep hearing how the Starks are completely wiped out. Last I remember only Ned, Catelyn and Robb are dead out of the main Starks. I guess they forgot about Jon, Arya, Bran, Sansa and Rickon.

[Frumpus]

Well I'm talking about the really major character deaths. The sort which a lot of other fiction isn't really ballsy enough to go with. A lot of fiction kills off moderately major characters. But if we look at the really big, game changing deaths what do we have? (spoilered just in case) -

• Viserys

Robert

Ned

Drogo

Robb

Cat

Joffrey

Tywin

That's only 8 in about 4000 pages of fiction. The entirety of the second book and a good half of the third book are without any major character deaths and then after the Red Wedding the only two big character deaths are villains who are pretty standard targets in any fiction. From then on there have been no big character deaths. Obviously there are a lot of smaller but still fairly big deaths as well, but those are the stand out ones imo. Only 3 are POVs.

You mentioned 3 are POVs but only listed 2 in your list. I am guessing you deliberately left out the 3rd POV in case that character didn't truly die.

I agree people who strictly watch the show majorly exaggerate the amount of deaths to main characters. I keep hearing how the Starks are completely wiped out. Last I remember only Ned, Catelyn and Robb are dead out of the main Starks. I guess they forgot about Jon, Arya, Bran, Sansa and Rickon.

Did you read ADwD? Am I the only one who considers a certain character to be dead, even with the possibility that it's temporary?

[Rashtibram]

I also agree that the death factor is hugely exaggerated.

When you think about it, 4 POV characters have died over the course of five books; 1 of those characters was resurrected (Catelyn) and 2 more were only minor characters in the grand scheme of things (Quentyn Martell and Arys Oakheart). So, really, when you think about it, the only major POV death so far has been Ned Stark in book/season 1. There have been many more major non-POV deaths (Robert, Viserys, Drogo, Renly, Robb, Ygritte, Tywin, Shae...) but that factor is common in all modern dramas and shouldn't really have much of a shock factor anymore.

While in the show we can add one more to that main character list, as Robb was essentially a POV character in the HBO adaptation as well as Catelyn, I can still think of a lot of shows which have killed off many more "main" characters than GoT (The Wire and LOST come to mind).

I think the only reason this aspect of the story so overhyped in Martin's work/the GoT show is because it's fantasy.

[Rashtibram]

You mentioned 3 are POVs but only listed 2 in your list. I am guessing you deliberately left out the 3rd POV in case that character didn't truly die.

Did you read ADwD? Am I the only one who considers a certain character to be dead, even with the possibility that it's temporary?

I think, with the level of deliberate foreshadowing and plot improbability, it's more than likely that he warged into Ghost as he died. There's too much textual evidence for this not to be true; we know that Jon is a skinchanger, and the point of the ADWD prologue seems to have been to give exposition to the whole warging business. Add this to the fact that he is supposed to "kill the boy and let the man be born," the multiple well-reasoned and evidence-based theories about his parentage and significance in future books, and the fact that he whispers "ghost" as he dies, and that's more than enough reason to assume that he'll come back in that form.

Martin doesn't just do things for shock value. He replied, when a fan referred to Jon's 'death', "oh, so you think he's dead, do you?" He wouldn't tease a potential death over the course of a multiple year long break, only for the big reveal to be "yep, he was dead all along."

[The Dragon has three heads]

I think, with the level of deliberate foreshadowing and plot improbability, it's more than likely that he warged into Ghost as he died. There's too much textual evidence for this not to be true; we know that Jon is a skinchanger, and the point of the ADWD prologue seems to have been to give exposition to the whole warging business. Add this to the fact that he is supposed to "kill the boy and let the man be born," the multiple well-reasoned and evidence-based theories about his parentage and significance in future books, and the fact that he whispers "ghost" as he dies, and that's more than enough reason to assume that he'll come back in that form.

Martin doesn't just do things for shock value. He replied, when a fan referred to Jon's 'death', "oh, so you think he's dead, do you?" He wouldn't tease a potential death over the course of a multiple year long break, only for the big reveal to be "yep, he was dead all along."

Spoiler tags.

You need them.

[GeorgeIAF]

That's what makes this series epic, the uncertainty regarding character's fate ... It's not the usual tv-show where the good and loved characters always prevail.

[frankbeyondthewall]

That's what makes this series epic, the uncertainty regarding character's fate ... It's not the usual tv-show where the good and loved characters always prevail.

I absolutely agree. I think it gives the series its realness, authenticity and makes it so much more relatable. As GRRM said (in some interview, probably several, don't remember where) - in real life the hero doesn't always survive, sometimes they die, too, and not always in a pretty way. So yes, although of course readers/viewers miss certain characters, and true, the red wedding was a bit much, that's what makes it closer to real life. If it weren't for the dragons and stuff.

[Rashtibram]

Spoiler tags.

You need them.

Whoops. You're totally right. Really easy to forget when you're used to posting on 'book spoiler' threads...

[Mother of Mountains]

Spoiler tags.

You need them.

Now you need them...