Free Northman Reborn Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 There's certainly something about society today that enjoys reading about misery, suffering and the absence of hope. Boggles my mind, but there you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 There's certainly something about society today that enjoys reading about misery, suffering and the absence of hope. Boggles my mind, but there you go. Yup. I strikes me as a bit weird. Once upon a time, badass and gangsta's were cool when you were a teenager, it seems nowadays everybody think it's cool. The rule of cool!!!! And they want them badassers, gangsterer, and meaner. Some people enjoy Natural Born Killers, because you know, it's so cool. I didn't, because you know, it's disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Yup. I strikes me as a bit weird. Once upon a time, badass and gangsta's were cool when you were a teenager, it seems nowadays everybody think it's cool. The rule of cool!!!! And they want them badassers, gangsterer, and meaner. Some people enjoy Natural Born Killers, because you know, it's so cool. I didn't, because you know, it's disgusting. I think it's part of the breakdown of society. Which started with the breakdown of the nuclear family. More and more people feel alienated, feel that the system is against them, that nothing has meaning, that life is one big pot of misery etc. As opposed to having a value system that instills pride in one's daily work, however minute your part in society is, pride in one's country, love for your family, and the value of self sacrifice for causes greater than yourself. Most reading this thread will scoff at the above paragraph, as it is several decades out of its time. But Dean Koontz - probably my favourite author - is a great voice for how society has deteriorated, how the "greatness of spirit" of previous generations is just no longer there. It all comes back to the lack of meaning once the central value system is eroded. Basically, the view becomes "What's the point? Let's just all smoke pot. It makes no difference anyway." A bit of a rambling post, but those are my thoughts for today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 I think it's part of the breakdown of society. Which started with the breakdown of the nuclear family. More and more people feel alienated, feel that the system is against them, that nothing has meaning, that life is one big pot of misery etc. As opposed to having a value system that instills pride in one's daily work, however minute your part in society is, pride in one's country, love for your family, and the value of self sacrifice for causes greater than yourself. Most reading this thread will scoff at the above paragraph, as it is several decades out of its time. But Dean Koontz - probably my favourite author - is a great voice for how society has deteriorated, how the "greatness of spirit" of previous generations is just no longer there. It all comes back to the lack of meaning once the central value system is eroded. Basically, the view becomes "What's the point? Let's just all smoke pot. It makes no difference anyway." A bit of a rambling post, but those are my thoughts for today. I like your post. While mostly an atheist, I went a few weeks ago to a Protestant mass, with a band, and gospel choir. And I was pleasantly surprised. The vibe I felt from this group was great. I can't really describe it, but you could feel the love, the respect, the humility, the strength. I think you are right when you say society is breaking down. Value system are a mess, rituals are disappearing, things are losing their meaning. What a sad thought. So what do you think? Is liking depressing stuff the symptom, or is it contributing to the mess? If all your heroes and favorite characters are psychotic anti-heroes, what does it says about you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Children no longer obey their parents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I like your post. While mostly an atheist, I went a few weeks ago to a Protestant mass, with a band, and gospel choir. And I was pleasantly surprised. The vibe I felt from this group was great. I can't really describe it, but you could feel the love, the respect, the humility, the strength. I think you are right when you say society is breaking down. Value system are a mess, rituals are disappearing, things are losing their meaning. What a sad thought. So what do you think? I liking depressing stuff the symptom, or is it contributing to the mess? If all your heroes and favorite characters are psychotic anti-heroes, what does it says about you? You're on the wrong forum for that kind of sentiment. Prepare to be lambasted. (But I agree with you, for what it's worth). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 You're on the wrong forum for that kind of sentiment. Prepare to be lambasted. (But I agree with you, for what it's worth). Hehe, I don't mind it. I have my own beliefs and values and won't be swayed on an internet forum. Maybe individualism leads to loss of great values. How can you know about altruism, love and family when you spend your life alone? By the way, do you know about any essay that talks about this subject? And also geek culture, and why superheroes are so popular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Children no longer obey their parents... And everyone is writing a book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 As opposed to having a value system that instills pride in one's daily work, however minute your part in society is, pride in one's country, love for your family, and the value of self sacrifice for causes greater than yourself. Most reading this thread will scoff at the above paragraph, Yep, seems like a load of hokum if you ask me :P On a side note, could someone explain to me why Abercrombie is constantly used as the poster boy for grimdark? He's not the first to do it and compared to some other authors his books come off as... not too grimdark at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 You wouldn't have several thousand men going to war for the sake of their former leader's 'little girl' in a cynical book, nor would you have Brienne risking her own life to protect the weak and defenceless. Plainly even if we look at the bad guys this is no triumph of Poppea, violence begets violence, there are come-uppances, even if they take their time to arrive stumbling as they do on crooked legs. The morality of ASOIAF is quite conventional I find, we're not encouraged to be a Gregor Clegane or to think that characters like him or Lord Baelish are good role models. :dunno: Like in all good fairy tales though the heroes have to be tested and there is a splash of realism in that standing up for the right cause isn't without risk. If you want though something cheerier than ASOIAF I second Douglas Adams, and there is Terry Prachett. Try some of the 'golden age' Sci-fi of the '50s maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Oh, I forgot you... You may look forward to Joe Abercrombie's Half A King trilogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 "What's the point? Let's just all smoke pot. It makes no difference anyway." You make a good argument :hat: On a side note, could someone explain to me why Abercrombie is constantly used as the poster boy for grimdark? He's not the first to do it and compared to some other authors his books come off as... not too grimdark at all. Because he's really funny, and it's enjoyable watching people flip out when they read him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 And everyone is writing a book. A really grim book. Isn't it possible all this pining for neverexistant utopias of family values and people who tipped their hats at one another as they passed on Main Street near the diner with a name like Betsy's is what's alienating and immiserating y'all as you try to paper over the cracks of a much more complex society filled with much more complex people? Oh, nevermind. Too tired. Carry on with your whinging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 The morality of ASOIAF is quite conventional I find, we're not encouraged to be a Gregor Clegane or to think that characters like him or Lord Baelish are good role models. :dunno: No, but he does seem to go out of his way to make the most honorable character so far (Brienne), pretty boring and useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Datepalm Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 No, but he does seem to go out of his way to make the most honorable character so far (Brienne), pretty boring and useless. You fail everything. En garde, sir. If you can't see the brilliance, poignancy, complexity and courage of Brienne, no wonder there's nothing left for you but reactionary twaddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Brienne (like Cersei) is an exploration of gender roles, specifically the way she adapts to such a male dominated area (war) in an already male dominated society. She's a fascinating character. On the other hand, there are still grimdark elements associated with her storyline: the rape threats, the misogyny, and so on. Such is the price of deconstructing the female fantasy warrior trope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Gogol Posted January 21, 2014 Author Share Posted January 21, 2014 Brienne (like Cersei) is an exploration of gender roles, specifically the way she adapts to such a male dominated area (war) in an already male dominated society. She's a fascinating character. On the other hand, there are still grimdark elements associated with her storyline: the rape threats, the misogyny, and so on. Such is the price of deconstructing the female fantasy warrior trope. I'd say she has the potential to be a fascinating character, but so far I think this potential is not exploited enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Callers Only Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 i'm a atheist nihilist and think the grimdarkness bullshit is plague upon fantasy (and ocasionally leads to really moronic results, like urban fantasies with hundreds of 'death by demon evisceration' with masquerade settings). So, it's not only a moral argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I'd say she has the potential to be a fascinating character, but so far I think this potential is not exploited enough.I forgot to answer your original question. Read David Gemmell. Read all 30 or so of his novels. He will offer everything you desire and more.Gritty violence, tortured, conflicted souls, but heroism and nobility of spirit as well.The greatest fantasy writer I have had the honor to read. I used to count the days to his next novel.May he rest in peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted January 21, 2014 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Read Pratchett's Small Gods, or any other Discworld book for that matters. I see a bunch of serious to gritty recommendations, but not this light, humorous series? What the hell, guys? It may be humourous, but it's not always 'light'. Pratchett usually has a serious and sometimes searing point to make about some aspect of human nature or another, particularly in Small Gods, one of the best indictments of blind fundamentalism I've read. I'd also be interested to know which Pratchett the OP has read. I've often encountered people saying, "I don't like Pratchett," when what they mean is "I didn't like The Colour of Magic," which is fully understandable. He became a vastly superior author later on, and no-one in their right mind recommends that people start Discworld with the first book, as it's the worst one (a bit like Malazan in that regard). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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