Francis Buck Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 The insight Kel gets from Sam is never something he couldn't otherwise know. In fact, the Sam-side frequently tells him stuff he already DOES know, and just doesn't want to hear/believe. Sam is like a more rational, level-headed version of Kel (speaking relatively). Which would kinda make sense, considering he mostly exists as a consciousness within Kel's mind. He has access to all of Kell's sensory data, he just can't control the body. Which means he's able to sort of "mull things over", while Kel's consciousness is the more active part. As to your last question, I'm not sure what you mean. Nothing would happen, really? Not to Kel anyway. For Sam's part, it probably just sucked seeing "himself" (really just the base urges of his souls, again as described by Akka in the TUC chapter) stumbling around like an idiot, and it's possible he still "felt" some kind of connection there that may have been very uncomfortable. So by Kel murdering the physical twin, Sam-proper was freed from that connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Good point. And your answer is..? I think there are good arguments for Anjokli but ultimately the voice knows enough about Inralitas that it feels like a Kellhus homonucleous to me.ETA: the Sammi theory doesn't add up for me. I it happened when they seperated Inralitas or uncle Holy would have noticed it before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 In TDtCB, Inrau comes to Akka in his dreams at one point and warns him of the Consult. Does that imply that Inrau wasn't damned for his usage of sorcery? He's clearly got some manner of maneuverability in the Outside if he can contact Akka. I imagine that would be difficult if being eaten by Ciphrang. The Judging Eye scenes indicate that Good deeds are weighed versus sins. Is the usage of sorcery, then, a discrete sin that accumulates rather than a once-and-damned sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karaddin Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Well if the sorcery was being performed by a godling while he's possessed it would seem to be holy (at least by Inrithi standards) rather than standard damned sorcery, this goes with it being completely different to standard gnostic sorcery. Even if the Mandate don't use sorcery to enhance martial skill you would think we would see Cleric doing so, since he fought with both sorcery and weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 It's possible that the Mark==damnation. Inrau had no Mark because he was not a full sorcerer iirc, he just had an affinity, he never made the final leap.It's possible that that is what damns you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 It isn't just Esme's hiding in the brothel, btw, that I would class "ineffectual" - it's also her eventual discovery because Naree is sooooo jealous, and despite Naree's fear of damnation. The idea that this would be psychologically true or astute....I don't even know how you begin to make that case. What's your idea of a safehouse, in such a situation? I mean, they stormed a palace - you can't go for a bunkered safehouse, that's for sure. It has to rely on anonymity to provide its safety. Also I'm not sure there's any hints of damnation for selling out an empress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 It's possible that the Mark==damnation. Inrau had no Mark because he was not a full sorcerer iirc, he just had an affinity, he never made the final leap.It's possible that that is what damns you. I'd wondered if his hurried use of it at the end of his life was enough to trigger the eternal torture machine/damnation, thus being a bitter final error. That and he did technically suicide, which no doubt gets you a paddling in Earwa as well - even though it was to avoid something utterly horrific (thus again testing the unquestionableness of whether things are just bad - ie like suicide is considered just bad per se) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Oh, I just realized (and perhaps someone mentioned this before) - another mistake Kellhus makes in his dialogue with Moe is assuming that the Cishaurim sent the assassins to the Scarlet Spires. It was clearly a suicide-mission and we've only seen Moe's Cishaurim undertake suicide missions. Moe sent the Cishaurim to prepare the Scarlet Spires for the Holy War. That seems like the obvious conclusion. Why doesn't Kellhus make it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 What's your idea of a safehouse, in such a situation? I mean, they stormed a palace - you can't go for a bunkered safehouse, that's for sure. It has to rely on anonymity to provide its safety. Also I'm not sure there's any hints of damnation for selling out an empress? I thought that the Kellian Empire was built on such things? Why have a distinction between treason against a secular body and damnation when the state that is being betrayed is not secular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I think Lockesnow nailed it - for Big Moe to have orchestrated the attack on the SS upends all of Kellhus's delusion of surpassing his Father's machinations. After all, Kellhus was the one on the tree. So how can He not be more than his father? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatúrinbor Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Why did Moe want Kellhus to kill him? Assuming that that's what Lockesnow's theory suggests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 the problem with "it's all part of Moe's plan" is that I still think Kellhus is right that Moe's logical conclusion would be to join the Consult. Although, I might be deluding myself because given the circumstances, I'm fairly certain I would join the Consult rather than risk damnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 I thought that the Kellian Empire was built on such things? Why have a distinction between treason against a secular body and damnation when the state that is being betrayed is not secular? Well, that's how the last people who stormed the palace said it works. But some new folk have stormed the palace. So, kinda that authority on the matter is perhaps a lil' teeter totter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Someone either in this thread or the last one mentioned the Consult taking Geshrunni's face as a relic from an initial version of the book where the Consult actively took faces. However, rereading TDtCB Achamian explains it - they take the faces to ensure that identifies the original body, and thus notice the substitution. Iyokas mentions to Eli that they had found one such body 5 years ago but had not identified it. I think it's likely that was the body of Cepheramunni. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Why did Moe want Kellhus to kill him? Perhaps he's banking on a batman-esque plan where being killed will get him brought back. Or if not brought back, un damned. Perhaps the most subtle of manipulations that drives Kellhus to eventually close the doors on the demon gods and so Moe only has to go through a few decades of torment (assuming when the doors close the gods don't get to keep the souls they already torment) and is then saved. Nah, he wanted Cnaiur to save him, I think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Why did Moe want Kellhus to kill him? Assuming that that's what Lockesnow's theory suggests. Big Moe gives the answer himself. He has studied the Outside and concluded that even it is subject to the Logos in that what comes before determines what comes after. So he obviously needs to die to put the next part of the TTT into action. Moe's soul is currently in the Outside being a badass Dunyain and conditioning the hell out of that shit. Boom. [/crackpot] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Why did Moe want Kellhus to kill him? Assuming that that's what Lockesnow's theory suggests. I think it's more Big Moe wants to live but figures Kellhus will save the world either way. For Dunyain the most important thing is Mission. Whether Big Moe would've joined the Consult...unsure. He was, after all, Cish, so he might have insight Kellhus doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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