Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 raped for years damn they seemed to not have sex for years look how long it took them to get Vis. That rape was when the guy was full on crazy, i'm asking which other incident was mention when he raped her? It's been said that he raped her for years after he had burned someone and the last rape was the day before she left for DS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueEyedCrow Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 It's similar today, as long as they are not raping and indiscriminately murdering, great warriors, or war-heroes, are revered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyrhex Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 It's similar today, as long as they are not raping and indiscriminately murdering, great warriors, or war-heroes, are revered. As long as it's not well known, you mean. I can think of a couple of characters from history that are revered as heros, but the things they have done, including rape and murder, and not told in classrooms, because why spoil a good legend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyWindsRevenge Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Quote "So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the King, obey the King, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak. But what if your father despises the King? What if the King massacres the innocent? It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or another. ^^^ :bowdown: :bowdown: I have always thought it was funny how a society so enslaved by they vows they take also has a popular phrase "Words are wind". Apparently this saying is only is only true if the words you said weren't said while kneeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Emberheart Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I guess the only thing a knight can truly do when the weak are cruelly harmed by say a lord or king, is to stand between the weak and the cruel noble and do nothing but stand in the way, not drawing a sword. That knight could cite his vows and show courage, hoping that the lord or king is touched and relents, or if not that knight take the blow with pride and is cut down, dying a true knight. It may inspire others who are not knights to rise up or do the right thing eventually, if lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Mac Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 An often overlooked true knight, at least in my opinion- Davos Seaworth. His smuggling of Edric is a perfect example of a knight breaking the rules to defend the innocent. As to Aerys' KG, I agree wholly. Arthur Dayne is one of the greatest swordsman in history. But, if he stood by and did nothing while Aerys raped his wife/burned people alive (which I'm sure he did at least once) without objection, he's a shitbag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMR Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 It's the whole thing about Ice and Fire, it shows us the gritty reality without the fairy tale pampering. I think Jaime sums it up pretty well, there are all these vows and sometimes they contradict each other. As Selmy, as Hightower, all you can do is try your best to follow some of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeRhaegar Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 It's been said that he raped her for years after he had burned someone and the last rape was the day before she left for DS. really which book i must have missed it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duranaparthur Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 By the standards of the story and the world it crafts, the majority of Aerys's Kingsguard are textbook examples of honorable anti-villains; characters who but for one tragic circumstance and choice would easily qualify as classic heroes. They're fighting on the losing side of a murderous tyrant and his somewhat mysterious and overly impulsive son, and maintain their honor (which I usually translate in most stories as a mix of professional pride and reputation among peers, not necessarily conscience) fairly well despite the circumstances. But they exist largely to illustrate why honor-over-conscience can be a bad thing, in the same way Ned illustrates how compassion over righteousness can be turned against you, or how Tywin shows how fear does not necessarily gain you respect. Still, since there is generally accepted to be at least some small accuracy in the Nuremburg defence of "I did as I was ordered," a key part of the total wisdom and morality of the Kingsguard relies on the character of their commander. While they should still show enough restraint and courage to act as advisers to their king (which I think might have been one of Rhaegar's goals), the Lord Commander is really the type of guy who should be on the Small Council and shape the administration as much as anyone else. Dunk no doubt made an excellent advisor, friend and bodyguard to Egg, and Selmy seems to have held his group to a higher standard, but when both men leave, their initial replacements fail and we see how far the Guard falls. Jamie's first boss no doubt enforced a precedent that allowed Aerys to run wild, while the leaderless guard of Joffrey was for all intents and purposes hired thugs with no real qualifications. Jamie seems to be trying to restrain and make the Guard act as "true knights" but struggles with having such low quality candidates that he's largely handicapped in his selection; true knights who are moral enough to restrain the king yet badass enough to defend him are basically extinct thanks to his father and Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy the Ruin Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I'm starting to dislike posters now. I feel like this is a conspiracy against me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hangover of the Morning Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 By the standards of the story and the world it crafts, the majority of Aerys's Kingsguard are textbook examples of honorable anti-villains; characters who but for one tragic circumstance and choice would easily qualify as classic heroes. They're fighting on the losing side of a murderous tyrant and his somewhat mysterious and overly impulsive son, and maintain their honor (which I usually translate in most stories as a mix of professional pride and reputation among peers, not necessarily conscience) fairly well despite the circumstances. But they exist largely to illustrate why honor-over-conscience can be a bad thing, in the same way Ned illustrates how compassion over righteousness can be turned against you, or how Tywin shows how fear does not necessarily gain you respect. Still, since there is generally accepted to be at least some small accuracy in the Nuremburg defence of "I did as I was ordered," a key part of the total wisdom and morality of the Kingsguard relies on the character of their commander. While they should still show enough restraint and courage to act as advisers to their king (which I think might have been one of Rhaegar's goals), the Lord Commander is really the type of guy who should be on the Small Council and shape the administration as much as anyone else. Dunk no doubt made an excellent advisor, friend and bodyguard to Egg, and Selmy seems to have held his group to a higher standard, but when both men leave, their initial replacements fail and we see how far the Guard falls. Jamie's first boss no doubt enforced a precedent that allowed Aerys to run wild, while the leaderless guard of Joffrey was for all intents and purposes hired thugs with no real qualifications. Jamie seems to be trying to restrain and make the Guard act as "true knights" but struggles with having such low quality candidates that he's largely handicapped in his selection; true knights who are moral enough to restrain the king yet badass enough to defend him are basically extinct thanks to his father and Cersei. :agree: Great post. Pretty ironic that the most honourable knights were serving one of the shitiest king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lareine Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 By the standards of the story and the world it crafts, the majority of Aerys's Kingsguard are textbook examples of honorable anti-villains; characters who but for one tragic circumstance and choice would easily qualify as classic heroes. They're fighting on the losing side of a murderous tyrant and his somewhat mysterious and overly impulsive son, and maintain their honor (which I usually translate in most stories as a mix of professional pride and reputation among peers, not necessarily conscience) fairly well despite the circumstances. But they exist largely to illustrate why honor-over-conscience can be a bad thing, in the same way Ned illustrates how compassion over righteousness can be turned against you, or how Tywin shows how fear does not necessarily gain you respect. Still, since there is generally accepted to be at least some small accuracy in the Nuremburg defence of "I did as I was ordered," a key part of the total wisdom and morality of the Kingsguard relies on the character of their commander. While they should still show enough restraint and courage to act as advisers to their king (which I think might have been one of Rhaegar's goals), the Lord Commander is really the type of guy who should be on the Small Council and shape the administration as much as anyone else. Dunk no doubt made an excellent advisor, friend and bodyguard to Egg, and Selmy seems to have held his group to a higher standard, but when both men leave, their initial replacements fail and we see how far the Guard falls. Jamie's first boss no doubt enforced a precedent that allowed Aerys to run wild, while the leaderless guard of Joffrey was for all intents and purposes hired thugs with no real qualifications. Jamie seems to be trying to restrain and make the Guard act as "true knights" but struggles with having such low quality candidates that he's largely handicapped in his selection; true knights who are moral enough to restrain the king yet badass enough to defend him are basically extinct thanks to his father and Cersei. Very well put. I especially appreciate that you brought up the Nuremburg defense in reference to the KGs behavior. It's a something I've always thought too, but have never seen anyone else point out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramsay Gimp Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Ser Edmure Tully is a true knight, everyone seems to forget about him. I think it's easy to forget that lords are usually also knights Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HMR Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I'm starting to dislike posters now. I feel like this is a conspiracy against me... Arthur Dayne used performance enhancing drugs :O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roddy the Ruin Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Arthur Dayne used performance enhancing drugs :ONO! HE WAS THE PINNACLE OF THE MALE GENDER AND YOU SHOULD SHOW HIM THE RESPECT HE DESERVES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sansa_Stark Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Yeah. The Dunk was a real knight. If he were one of Aerys 7 he wouldn't have given a fuck and would have given Aerys a clout in the ear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mediterraneo Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 don't matter everyone still recognized him as one. This is a guy who still attacked a prince of royal blood despite knowing the consequences, hell he went against a man who hired him because it was right. I would not be surprised if dunk went a cut the cord around Brandon throat and tell aerys he wasn't being a good king. Yay all the love for Ser Dunk. What a great guy. Gotta love Dunk, because he's a fake knight who comes closest to ideal knightliness out of anyone, except maybe his great-great-grandniece twice removed or something, Brienne of Tarth. Also not a real knight. Or Davos Seaworth, who is the ideal of lordliness despite being a lord from absolutely nowhere. I like the way in which Dunk, which lived his life as the perfect knight (up to the three novels we read, at least) started his knightly career with some lies (being knighted, having the right to arms, stuff...) and with the objective to mantain his lifestyle, relatively privileged and free of manual work.And he was the most similar thing to the ideal that is represented here. Ser Edmure Tully is a true knight, everyone seems to forget about him. Good point. Edmure does his best for the people entrusted to him, try not to make oaths he cannot mantain and is sincere.Davos is truthful too. I'd add the Hound, of which I'm not a particular fan, and even Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr as examples. Why aren't them considered "true knights" on the forums and in-world? A point against them being considered epythomes of chivalry is that they don't ask for that recognition.Edmure valor is in doubt (both in this forum and in-world, even if to me he is as brave as anybody else in his situation)Davos doesn't consider himself a knight o a fighter, and shares with Beric and Thoros the "problem" of the faith. Being a Knight is a "Seven's thing" not a Red God one, barring sincretisms to come. The Hound... he killed a boy, but a boy that he was told had attacked his king, himself a boy. We don't know the exact situations in which he killed his other victims. Stupidity, or trust in the word of your Lord, is not a cause of exclusion from the good knight category. But not wanting to be a knight is. And running from the enemy in battle too. Sandor was a king's guard, even if not a knight, when he left the battlefield at King's Landing. He wasn't brave enough to overcome his trauma and his fear.EDIT: some of the typos that I always find in my posts, old and recent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oneorobertsbastards Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I'm not saying this just because I have a crush in the fictional character of the Hound (ahem) but...I think he's the closest thing to a true knight we see in the series, aside from Davos. Therein lies the irony of the concept of "a true knight". Sandor refuses knighthood because he rejects the pretentiousness of it. He is true to what he is, and because of this he is one of the few with integrity. He knows it's all feigned honor and "a favor tied around a sword" and instead chooses to present himself as nothing more than a skilled killer, though we know he is more than that. Of all the kingsguard, he (being the one non-knight) alone refuses to beat a 12 year old girl. I don't think his eventual refusal to fight was based solely on his fear of fire, but because he finally got enough of the monsters he was in service to. He gives two flips about how he is perceived, because he doesn't value the opinions of the pretentious. That's integrity, and that's honor. He does some pretty rotten things, but he makes no bones about it or excuses for it. I'd say his biggest flaw is the drinking. Dude needs a 12 step program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victor227 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Dunk and Baelor Breakspear were definitely 'true knights'. Of course, they didn't have the misfortune of being in Aerys' Kingsguard, where the multitude of knightly and Kingsguard duties came into brutal conflict, and good men were compelled to stand aside and allow terrible deeds to go on. As Barristan thinks to himself, "Duskendale had been his finest hour, yet the memory tasted bitter on his tongue." His greatest glory as a member of the Kingsguard was in saving King Aerys single-handed and putting an end to the Defiance, and his greatest shame as a knight is that he saved Aerys and allowed his madness to reign freely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gneisenau Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I think young and innocent meant children and noblewomen only, knight on peasant violence is cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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