Unrealistic Battle Sequences

[Thucydides]

I think what people are forgetting here is that Tyrion is a secret Targ, which pretty much makes him an unbeatable badass by default. So yeah, I was actually a little disappointed in how Tyrion did at the Battle of Blackwater -- I expected him to do so much better, because I expect more out a secret Targ than a brief romp through the battle lines killing a handful of people before getting stabbed in the face nearly drowning.

[RavenKing23]

The problem is balance. Dwarfs have shortened arms and legs. If Tyrion is swing an axe he'd most likely fall on his face. Of course you could argue against this by his acrobatic skills but those lessons never had a real battleaxe im hand.

[ckal]

So far, it's much more that what you have been able to provide so far.

So I'm eager for you to provide anything to support your points. I'll be expecting for a link of George saying, after 2002, that he regrets how he wrote Tyrion at the begining. And another acnowledging that the men he slew at the Blackwater were not recruited peasant or untrained men-at-arms, but battle-tested knights and sellswords.

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html

Here you go. Grrm also confirms in this interview that he would change that.

Thanks. I don't always have time to search for interviews.

In case you don't want to read the whole interview:

"Would you like to change anything of the first books?

Yes, I imagine…

Such as…

Ahm... Wait... What would I like to change? Well, I might like to change the scene where Tyrion Lannister is first introduced; the scene where Tyrion jumps from the top of a gate; it isn’t possible. By then I had very few references about people of its condition and it was later when I came to know more extended details about his physical challenges. So that’s one of the things I would change."

[The hairy bear]

"Would you like to change anything of the first books?

Yes, I imagine…

Such as…

Ahm... Wait... What would I like to change? Well, I might like to change the scene where Tyrion Lannister is first introduced; the scene where Tyrion jumps from the top of a gate; it isn’t possible. By then I had very few references about people of its condition and it was later when I came to know more extended details about his physical challenges. So that’s one of the things I would change."

:owned:

Thanks for providing quotes, and very interesting interview.

[ckal]

:owned:

Thanks for providing quotes, and very interesting interview.

Haha no problem. All good.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I just reread the fight on the High Road. Tyrion engaged three clansmen. The first was mounted. He leaped the rock where Tyrion and Marillion were hiding. After the clansman came about and charged, Tyrion swung his axe with both hands. The blade caught the charging horse in the throat with a meaty thunk, angling upward, and Tyrion almost lost his grip as the animal screamed and collapsed. He managed to wrench the axe free and lurch clumsily out of the way. ... Tyrion danced back in while the brigand's leg was still pinned beneath his fallen mount, and buried the axe in the man's neck, just above the shoulder blades. Later he moved to help Lady Catelyn in a fit of admirable chivalry. He caught the first man in the back of the knee before they even knew he was there, and the heavy axehead split flesh and bone like rotten wood. Logs that bleed, Tyrion thought inanely as the second man came for him. Tyrion ducked under his sword, lashed out with the axe, the man reeled backward . . . and Catelyn Stark stepped up behind him and opened his throat. Tyrion doesn't do anything unrealistic in this battle.

[Iskandros]

Didn't really think about Tyrion, I guess considering his condition he shouldn;t be such a badass. What pissed me off what the Battle at the Wall. There's no way you can shoot an arrow 200 meters in the air and expect it to hurt someone.

[Ser Arys Redshirt]

A lot of the battles may SEEM more gritty and realistic if you're used to reading fantasy. Compared to say, scenes from the Drizzt Do'Urden books, GRRM's battles look much more earthy. But there's still far too much sword-on-sword contact and less punching, kicking, and shield-bashing than would be truly realistic.

That said, GRRM puts in a lot of stuff that people ignore in other fantasy writing. You can't see too well in a helm. Swords break, fairly often. People slip and fall down in the mud and the blood and the beer. Biting occurs.

My big problem is with a little little man on a horse with a battleaxe slaying foot soldiers left and right. There's no way Tyrion could hit anything from horseback. In fact, I have never quite figured out how he manages to mount a horse by himself.

Oh yeah. And how do you shoot arrows all the way UP to the wall? 800 ft is not an impossible shot for a good bowman (I once stood on a tower in Wales where some unknown archer nailed a guy over a klick away), but straight UP? Adjusting for different wind conditions? I don't think that's possible with even the most sophisticated modern archery equipment, let alone the sticks and guts the wildlings were making their gear out of.

[Lord Reaver]

That said, GRRM puts in a lot of stuff that people ignore in other fantasy writing. You can't see too well in a helm. Swords break, fairly often. People slip and fall down in the mud and the blood and the beer. Biting occurs.

Well, depends on the type of helm, really. Most footmen helms (sallet, chapel de fer, even the good old "norman" helms) give quite excellent field of vision.

Swords breaking...well, it could happen, sure, not what I'd call "fairly often", though.

Finally, biting...mmm, depends what sort of fight, I suppose. There wouldn't be much point in biting when your opponent is wearing any sort of armor, after all. Though the 13th century manual does have a move called "and then I put my thumb in your eye"....

[Chatty Duelist]

Every single battle in the book.

Tyrion and Asha would have died a dozen times over in the real world.

All this parrying and blocking with swords and spears is irking my historically accurate physique.

This never happened unless you were extremely desperate.

IRL Knights relied only on 2 things to protect them

1. Their Shield

2. Their armor.

We constantly see people parrying extr3me blows with a single chink in their swords and not a single sword has bent or shattered (Except that thing in the AGoT Prologue) or plain exploded.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I just reread the fight on the High Road. Tyrion engaged three clansmen. The first was mounted. He leaped the rock where Tyrion and Marillion were hiding. After the clansman came about and charged, Tyrion swung his axe with both hands. The blade caught the charging horse in the throat with a meaty thunk, angling upward, and Tyrion almost lost his grip as the animal screamed and collapsed. He managed to wrench the axe free and lurch clumsily out of the way. ... Tyrion danced back in while the brigand's leg was still pinned beneath his fallen mount, and buried the axe in the man's neck, just above the shoulder blades. Later he moved to help Lady Catelyn in a fit of admirable chivalry. He caught the first man in the back of the knee before they even knew he was there, and the heavy axehead split flesh and bone like rotten wood. Logs that bleed, Tyrion thought inanely as the second man came for him. Tyrion ducked under his sword, lashed out with the axe, the man reeled backward . . . and Catelyn Stark stepped up behind him and opened his throat. Tyrion doesn't do anything unrealistic in this battle.

Here's the passage from the Battle of the Green Fork...

By then the enemy was on him, and Tyrion's battle shrunk to the few feet of ground around his horse. A man-at-arms thrust at his chest and his axe lashed out, knocking the spear aside. The man danced back for another try, but Tyrion spurred his horse and rode right over him. Bronn was surrounded by three foes, but he lopped the head off the first spear that came at him, and raked his blade across a second man's face on his backslash.

A thrown spear came hurtling at Tyrion from the left and lodged in his shield with a woody chunk. He wheeled and raced after the thrower, but the man raised his own shield over his head. Tyrion circled around him, raining axe blows down on the wood. Chips of oak went flying, until the northerner lost his feet and slipped, failing flat on his back with his shield on top of him. He was below the reach of Tyrion's axe and it was too much bother to dismount, so he left him there and rode after another man, taking him from behind with a sweeping downcut that sent a jolt of impact up his arm. That won him a moment's respite. Reining up, he looked for the river. There it was, off to the right. Somehow he had gotten turned around.

A Burned Man rode past, slumped against his horse. A spear had entered his belly and come out through his back. He was past any help, but when Tyrion saw one of the northerners run up and make a grab for his reins, he charged.

His quarry met him sword in hand. He was tall and spare, wearing a long chainmail hauberk and gauntlets of lobstered steel, but he'd lost his helm and blood ran down into his eyes from a gash across his forehead. Tyrion aimed a swipe at his face, but the tall man slammed it aside. "Dwarf," he screamed. "Die." He turned in a circle as Tyrion rode around him, hacking at his head and shoulders. Steel rang on steel, and Tyrion soon realized that the tall man was quicker and stronger than he was. Where in the seven hells was Bronn? "Die," the man grunted, chopping at him savagely. Tyrion barely got his shield up in time, and the wood seemed to explode inward under the force of the blow. The shattered pieces fell away from his arm. "Die!" the swordsman bellowed, shoving in close and whanging Tyrion across the temple so hard his head rang. The blade made a hideous scraping sound as he drew it back over the steel. The tall man grinned . . . until Tyrion's destrier bit, quick as a snake, laying his cheek bare to the bone. Then he screamed. Tyrion buried his axe in his head. "You die," he told him, and he did.

As he wrenched the blade free, he heard a shout. Eddard!" a voice rang out. "For Eddard and Winterfell!" The knight came thundering down on him, swinging the spiked ball of a morningstar around his head. Their warhorses slammed together before Tyrion could so much as open his mouth to shout for Bronn. His right elbow exploded with pain as the spikes punched through the thin metal around the joint. His axe was gone, as fast as that. He clawed for his sword, but the morningstar was circling again, coming at his face. A sickening crunch, and he was falling. He did not recall hitting the ground, but when he looked up there was only sky above him. He rolled onto his side and tried to find his feet, but pain shuddered through him and the world throbbed. The knight who had felled him drew up above him. "Tyrion the Imp," he boomed down. "You are mine. Do you yield, Lannister?"

Yes, Tyrion thought, but the word caught in his throat. He made a croaking sound and fought his way to his knees, fumbling for a weapon. His sword, his dirk, anything . . .

"Do you yield?" The knight loomed overhead on his armored warhorse. Man and horse both seemed immense. The spiked ball swung in a lazy circle. Tyrion's hands were numb, his vision blurred, his scabbard empty. "Yield or die," the knight declared, his flail whirling faster and faster.

Tyrion lurched to his feet, driving his head into the horse's belly. The animal gave a hideous scream and reared. It tried to twist away from the agony, a shower of blood and viscera poured down over Tyrion's face, and the horse fell like an avalanche. The next he knew, his visor was packed with mud and something was crushing his foot. He wriggled free, his throat so tight he could scarce talk. " . . . yield . . . " he managed to croak faintly.

"Yes," a voice moaned, thick with pain.

Tyrion scraped the mud off his helm so he could see again. The horse had fallen away from him, onto its rider. The knight's leg was trapped, the arm he'd used to break his fall twisted at a grotesque angle. "Yield," he repeated. Fumbling at his belt with his good hand, he drew a sword and flung it at Tyrion's feet. "I yield, my lord."

First Tyrion knocks aside the tip of a spear with his axe from horseback and rides the man down. No issue there. Then he hacked down at a man, who already thrown his spear, who finally fell and Tyrion left him because the man, who was lying on the ground now, was beyond his reach. Realistic enough so far. As a third man was running away from him Tyrion, still mounted, cut him down from behind. OK. Tyrion next fought an unmounted wordsman with no helm. The other was about to get the best of him when his destrier bit his opponent and Tyrionstruck his head with his axe. That's what warhorsse are bred and trained to do. The one mounted fighter he faced, the one one with the morningstar, made short work of Tyrion, knocking him off his horse. Just what you'd expect. Recognizing Tyrion the man paused and walked his horse over Tyrion, who was wearing a helmet with a foot-long spike, which he drove into the horse's belly. What's wrong with that? The dead horse fell and trapped his opponent, severely injuring the man in the process. I really don't see how this is unrealistic.

[C0bR]

Every single battle in the book.

Tyrion and Asha would have died a dozen times over in the real world.

All this parrying and blocking with swords and spears is irking my historically accurate physique.

This never happened unless you were extremely desperate.

IRL Knights relied only on 2 things to protect them

1. Their Shield

2. Their armor.

We constantly see people parrying extr3me blows with a single chink in their swords and not a single sword has bent or shattered (Except that thing in the AGoT Prologue) or plain exploded.

But, but... the clashing of swords for 30 minutes is so cool!

[Aegon the Great]

Pod's badassery is pretty surprising.

[Nyrhex]

First Tyrion knocks aside the tip of a spear with his axe from horseback and rides the man down. No issue there. Then he hacked down at a man, who already thrown his spear, who finally fell and Tyrion left him because the man, who was lying on the ground now, was beyond his reach. Realistic enough so far. As a third man was running away from him Tyrion, still mounted, cut him down from behind. OK. Tyrion next fought an unmounted wordsman with no helm. The other was about to get the best of him when his destrier bit his opponent and Tyrionstruck his head with his axe. That's what warhorsse are bred and trained to do. The one mounted fighter he faced, the one one with the morningstar, made short work of Tyrion, knocking him off his horse. Just what you'd expect. Recognizing Tyrion the man paused and walked his horse over Tyrion, who was wearing a helmet with a foot-long spike, which he drove into the horse's belly. What's wrong with that? The dead horse fell and trapped his opponent, severely injuring the man in the process. I really don't see how this is unrealistic.

Hi, do you happen to know my friend here, Tyrion? Little fellow. Needs a special saddle and specially trained horse to be able to ride. Just came back from the Vale after he lost his horse and saddle, to an army that had not prepared for him to be armed, armored, and horsed.

How the hell does he manage to stay on the horse, in the middle of a pretty intense ride? How does he not snap his neck, when the foot-long spike is broken from his helmet from the force of a warhorse falling to the ground? FFS, he should have died so many times, his plot shield should develop character and be converted into a standalone short story.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Hi, do you happen to know my friend here, Tyrion? Little fellow. Needs a special saddle and specially trained horse to be able to ride. Just came back from the Vale after he lost his horse and saddle, to an army that had not prepared for him to be armed, armored, and horsed.

How the hell does he manage to stay on the horse, in the middle of a pretty intense ride? How does he not snap his neck, when the foot-long spike is broken from his helmet from the force of a warhorse falling to the ground? FFS, he should have died so many times, his plot shield should develop character and be converted into a standalone short story.

I'm sure you're right. You seem to be. I'll give you that Tyrion's ability to ride the destrier at the Green Fork is problematic. But we can assume that he was able to rig a saddle after he joined his father's host. Little kids can ride so why can't Tyrion? The spike snapped off. His helm was fastened to his gorget, which was probably strapped to his plate.

[Hand to King Davos]

Hi, do you happen to know my friend here, Tyrion? Little fellow. Needs a special saddle and specially trained horse to be able to ride. Just came back from the Vale after he lost his horse and saddle, to an army that had not prepared for him to be armed, armored, and horsed.

How the hell does he manage to stay on the horse, in the middle of a pretty intense ride? How does he not snap his neck, when the foot-long spike is broken from his helmet from the force of a warhorse falling to the ground? FFS, he should have died so many times, his plot shield should develop character and be converted into a standalone short story.

The army was led by his dad, who I am pretty sure realized that Tyrion had escaped. I will give you the spike, but do you really expect Martin to be perfect? I would have done a lot worse.

[Chatty Duelist]

But, but... the clashing of swords for 30 minutes is so cool!

Let's face it. Do you want little chinks on swords, or broken skulls and bloody brains?

[vox umbrarum]

Oberyn vs. the Mountain

As much as I loved that part, given the constellation I fear Oberyn, no matter how agile and strong, wouldn't have stood a chance.

[Lord Reaver]

Oberyn vs. the Mountain

As much as I loved that part, given the constellation I fear Oberyn, no matter how agile and strong, wouldn't have stood a chance.

Yep. A spear is a singularly poor weapon to use in a duel, due to the ease with which your opponent can control it.

[yogurtcobain]

Oberyn vs. the Mountain

As much as I loved that part, given the constellation I fear Oberyn, no matter how agile and strong, wouldn't have stood a chance.

Ya I agree with this, if the Mountain was really 8 feet tall and muscular no man could kill him in single combat... I mean have you ever seen a seven foot tall person? They are massive, now imagine a foot higher and muscular... I never understood why Martin made him so large, at 7 feet he would still be a obvious giant without being unrealistic