Tyrion hatred

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Does anyone but me feel like Tyrion might be a better person than say Brienne, Davos, or even Ned?

Not even close to them.

[Jasta11]

It doesnt appear that Tyrion did a damn thing to try to help Tysha or put up any resistance to joining in, this is where I have a problem with it. If you love someone, like he claims he did, you at least put up a fight and try to help them.

He's a 13 years old dwarf. What do you want him to do, grab an axe and slaughter the entire garrison? Sheesh. He was just as helpless as Sansa was during her marriage. At the time he also thought she was just a whore and it was all an elaborate trick. Don't know about you, but when I was 13 I sure as hell didn't have to emotional strength to handle stuff like that, and I also wasn't a dwarf that got shunned and mocked for all his life. And if you (or anyone else) really suggest he was 100% consenting with raping her because he had an erection, I have a couple lessons about male anatomy to teach you.

See, this is what irks me with these sort of threads (it also happens with Dany and Stannis, but Tyrion seems to get it worse still). It's pretty presumptuous of you to assume how you would react in such a situation at 13, with a notoriously no-nonsense father pressuring you. Poster Rhaegar I Targaryen said it; the sheer amount of moral outrage makes me scratch my head. Like, is there no line between a goody two-shoes like Ned who would never do anything bad, and an amoral scumbag whose entire persona can be resumed to ''he did this bad thing so he sucks''? Can we not see that a person did bad things (and Tyrion did do several bad things, no denying that) without pointing fingers and saying he should burn in hell?

Because, so far, I see a whole lot of that. Let me be clear; Tyrion is not a good guy. That's pretty much fact. He's ruthless to the point of sometimes being callous, his relationship with women is hopelessly warped, he is petty and vindicative, and has a pretty selfish streak too. He puts others ahead of himself, that he does. But there's a vast gulf between ''not a good guy'' and ''monster''. I'm just not eager to say he's an absolute scum because he looked out for numero uno a few times too many. The one thing he's done that was 100% bad and unexcusable was the rape of the slave. He was at an incredibly low point in his life, but that's no excuse for such an act.

The rest, however? A lot of it is due both to his own personality and hard circumstances, really. Breaking Marillion's fingers was dickish, but the guy hadn't been a saint to him and was the very reason Tyrion was captured in the first place. Keeping Joffrey on the throne was loyalty to his family and position, and doesn't make him evil at all, hell he reins in his nephew a few times so it's clear he's not OK with the situation. Not caring about those sent to free Jaime is a bit of a funny accusation; nobody in these books gives two shits about commoner and soldiers save for guys like Edmure who are considered bleeding hearts. Killing the singer was also an overreaction, but he gave the guy several chances to just get out of the city, which he didn't.

The Sansa question is, I think, where a lot of the hatred for the character stems. We see ourselves that he's conflicted; he wants Sansa and the titles that come with her. But he has reservations about the deal several times. In the end, his wants win over his reservation, but that doesn't mean the latter should be ignored. And while molesting the poor girl was a bad thing, in-universe he had the right to do more yet he didn't. While it doesn't excuse Tyrion for his selfishness, I still think the first culprit here is Tywin himself for imposing a shitty situation on the both of them.

[Dany Girl]

He's a 13 years old dwarf. What do you want him to do, grab an axe and slaughter the entire garrison? Sheesh. He was just as helpless as Sansa was during her marriage. At the time he also thought she was just a whore and it was all an elaborate trick. Don't know about you, but when I was 13 I sure as hell didn't have to emotional strength to handle stuff like that, and I also wasn't a dwarf that got shunned and mocked for all his life. And if you (or anyone else) really suggest he was 100% consenting with raping her because he had an erection, I have a couple lessons about male anatomy to teach you.

See, this is what irks me with these sort of threads (it also happens with Dany and Stannis, but Tyrion seems to get it worse still). It's pretty presumptuous of you to assume how you would react in such a situation at 13, with a notoriously no-nonsense father pressuring you. Poster Rhaegar I Targaryen said it; the sheer amount of moral outrage makes me scratch my head. Like, is there no line between a goody two-shoes like Ned who would never do anything bad, and an amoral scumbag whose entire persona can be resumed to ''he did this bad thing so he sucks''? Can we not see that a person did bad things (and Tyrion did do several bad things, no denying that) without pointing fingers and saying he should burn in hell?

Because, so far, I see a whole lot of that. Let me be clear; Tyrion is not a good guy. That's pretty much fact. He's ruthless to the point of sometimes being callous, his relationship with women is hopelessly warped, he is petty and vindicative, and has a pretty selfish streak too. He puts others ahead of himself, that he does. But there's a vast gulf between ''not a good guy'' and ''monster''. I'm just not eager to say he's an absolute scum because he looked out for numero uno a few times too many. The one thing he's done that was 100% bad and unexcusable was the rape of the slave. He was at an incredibly low point in his life, but that's no excuse for such an act.

The rest, however? A lot of it is due both to his own personality and hard circumstances, really. Breaking Marillion's fingers was dickish, but the guy hadn't been a saint to him and was the very reason Tyrion was captured in the first place. Keeping Joffrey on the throne was loyalty to his family and position, and doesn't make him evil at all, hell he reins in his nephew a few times so it's clear he's not OK with the situation. Not caring about those sent to free Jaime is a bit of a funny accusation; nobody in these books gives two shits about commoner and soldiers save for guys like Edmure who are considered bleeding hearts. Killing the singer was also an overreaction, but he gave the guy several chances to just get out of the city, which he didn't.

The Sansa question is, I think, where a lot of the hatred for the character stems. We see ourselves that he's conflicted; he wants Sansa and the titles that come with her. But he has reservations about the deal several times. In the end, his wants win over his reservation, but that doesn't mean the latter should be ignored. And while molesting the poor girl was a bad thing, in-universe he had the right to do more yet he didn't. While it doesn't excuse Tyrion for his selfishness, I still think the first culprit here is Tywin himself for imposing a shitty situation on the both of them.

How about simply asking his father to let her go? There's not one line where he says, "I begged my father to let her go" or anything like that. How about attempting to refuse to participate in the gang rape, instead we get some, "my cock betrayed me," bs.

Something, anything, to show he put up some sort of resistance to it would be an improvement on the situation. I know it wouldn't have worked, but he could have tried.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

Fuck it, this thread'll get locked anyway.

• Raped a slave girl in Dance.
• Forcibly married and molested a twelve year old prisoner.

When did he molest a 12 year old? I assume you're referring to Sansa. He was no more a willing participant in any of that than she was.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

When did he molest a 12 year old? I assume you're referring to Sansa. He was no more a willing participant in any of that than she was.

He touched her bare breast without express permission. Might have even tweaked a nipple. Child molester! Misogynist!

[Mourneblade]

Unfortunately Tyrion gets two types of hate that is undeserved.

One those who judge him with the modern eye. Yes in today's world he would be as likable as the plague. Think a vile insecure, deviant, perverted, deformed, mob bosses son. These people love to label him with modern interpretations or definitions completely disregarding the context and culture, of the setting. Nuff said on that.

The others who liked him or at least sympathized with him until after the PW or ADWD, who then re read and no longer sympathize or justify his actions because of the vile creature he has become. That which is seen can no longer be unseen. These folks are disillusioned and on re read lose focus on context. It's one thing if later on in the story it is discovered that someone was acting, or playing false, IE Roose Bolton, where in re read you change contex based on new info. It's quite another to punish a character for crimes not yet done.

Tyrion is a solid character with tolerable vises, within context and setting, right up till Jamie hits him with the truth of Tyshia... After that he spirals and embraces the vile creature that everyone thinks he is.

It is unfortunate that some people allow themselves to fall in to either of these two views. It can cause people lose some of the flavor of the story.

[Tywin Smokin a Blunt]

People on here make way too much out of Illyrio's slave girl, certainly not Tyrion's finest moment, but its hardly character defining. I think the amount of Tyrion hate on here says more about the make-up of this forum than anything else.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I think the amount of Tyrion hate on here says more about the make-up of this forum than anything else.

I'm not sure if it's necessarily the make up. I think there are probably just as many, if not more, people who don't hate Tyrion. As mentioned before, haters are always a bit more vocal. They're pissed. They're more motivated.

I may not share their view on Tyrion, but I at least have to admire that they stick to their principals. For them, Tyrion crossed that line from grey to black. Everyone has that line in their head. Some people just put it different places.

They can hate Tyrion all they like. I bet before they turn the last page of A Dream of Spring they'll like him a little bit more.

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

Unfortunately Tyrion gets two types of hate that is undeserved.

One those who judge him with the modern eye. Yes in today's world he would be as likable as the plague. Think a vile insecure, deviant, perverted, deformed, mob bosses son. These people love to label him with modern interpretations or definitions completely disregarding the context and culture, of the setting. Nuff said on that.

The others who liked him or at least sympathized with him until after the PW or ADWD, who then re read and no longer sympathize or justify his actions because of the vile creature he has become. That which is seen can no longer be unseen. These folks are disillusioned and on re read lose focus on context. It's one thing if later on in the story it is discovered that someone was acting, or playing false, IE Roose Bolton, where in re read you change contex based on new info. It's quite another to punish a character for crimes not yet done.

Tyrion is a solid character with tolerable vises, within context and setting, right up till Jamie hits him with the truth of Tyshia... After that he spirals and embraces the vile creature that everyone thinks he is.

It is unfortunate that some people allow themselves to fall in to either of these two views. It can cause people lose some of the flavor of the story.

Yeah exactly. He had a decline, but there's no need to retroactively strip him of his previous redeeming qualities.

[Jasta11]

How about simply asking his father to let her go? There's not one line where he says, "I begged my father to let her go" or anything like that. How about attempting to refuse to participate in the gang rape, instead we get some, "my cock betrayed me," bs.

Something, anything, to show he put up some sort of resistance to it would be an improvement on the situation. I know it wouldn't have worked, but he could have tried.

I cannot fault a character for not making a token, hollow gesture when under incredible amounts of pressure. He was 13. His father was Tywin friggin Lannister, the worst parent and control freak in Westeros, or close to it. He thought he had been deceived and betrayed both by his close family and some whore who manipulated his feelings. This is about the last scenario where I'll judge a character's actions. It's ridiculous. You're asking something extraordinarily hard of Tyrion, then slamming him because he doesn't adhere to your incredible standards. Might as well say Sansa was complicit in her wedding because she didn't karate kick Joffrey and then fly away on a unicorn.

You seem to be disregarding the context, is what I'm saying. Sure it's all very heroic to say you would die for your loved ones and never hurt them and your will is your own and blah de blah. When put in Tyrion's situation, I'm pretty certain most would buckle. Judging Tyrion for raping the slave is one thing, hell I do it. Judging him because he isin't friggin Superman is quite another.

[Cloud]

He's a 13 years old dwarf. What do you want him to do, grab an axe and slaughter the entire garrison? Sheesh. He was just as helpless as Sansa was during her marriage. At the time he also thought she was just a whore and it was all an elaborate trick. Don't know about you, but when I was 13 I sure as hell didn't have to emotional strength to handle stuff like that, and I also wasn't a dwarf that got shunned and mocked for all his life. And if you (or anyone else) really suggest he was 100% consenting with raping her because he had an erection, I have a couple lessons about male anatomy to teach you.

See, this is what irks me with these sort of threads (it also happens with Dany and Stannis, but Tyrion seems to get it worse still). It's pretty presumptuous of you to assume how you would react in such a situation at 13, with a notoriously no-nonsense father pressuring you. Poster Rhaegar I Targaryen said it; the sheer amount of moral outrage makes me scratch my head. Like, is there no line between a goody two-shoes like Ned who would never do anything bad, and an amoral scumbag whose entire persona can be resumed to ''he did this bad thing so he sucks''? Can we not see that a person did bad things (and Tyrion did do several bad things, no denying that) without pointing fingers and saying he should burn in hell?

Because, so far, I see a whole lot of that. Let me be clear; Tyrion is not a good guy. That's pretty much fact. He's ruthless to the point of sometimes being callous, his relationship with women is hopelessly warped, he is petty and vindicative, and has a pretty selfish streak too. He puts others ahead of himself, that he does. But there's a vast gulf between ''not a good guy'' and ''monster''. I'm just not eager to say he's an absolute scum because he looked out for numero uno a few times too many. The one thing he's done that was 100% bad and unexcusable was the rape of the slave. He was at an incredibly low point in his life, but that's no excuse for such an act.

The rest, however? A lot of it is due both to his own personality and hard circumstances, really. Breaking Marillion's fingers was dickish, but the guy hadn't been a saint to him and was the very reason Tyrion was captured in the first place. Keeping Joffrey on the throne was loyalty to his family and position, and doesn't make him evil at all, hell he reins in his nephew a few times so it's clear he's not OK with the situation. Not caring about those sent to free Jaime is a bit of a funny accusation; nobody in these books gives two shits about commoner and soldiers save for guys like Edmure who are considered bleeding hearts. Killing the singer was also an overreaction, but he gave the guy several chances to just get out of the city, which he didn't.

The Sansa question is, I think, where a lot of the hatred for the character stems. We see ourselves that he's conflicted; he wants Sansa and the titles that come with her. But he has reservations about the deal several times. In the end, his wants win over his reservation, but that doesn't mean the latter should be ignored. And while molesting the poor girl was a bad thing, in-universe he had the right to do more yet he didn't. While it doesn't excuse Tyrion for his selfishness, I still think the first culprit here is Tywin himself for imposing a shitty situation on the both of them.

:cheers: Well said.

[Sister Meribald]

You might be. He's certainly a better character to read then all of the others. He's more interesting and complex. But Ned, Brienne, and Davos were all better people in my opinion. Tyrion has always been the dark hero/light villain.

I couldn't have said it better myself! :cheers:

[Sister Meribald]

It doesnt appear that Tyrion did a damn thing to try to help Tysha or put up any resistance to joining in, this is where I have a problem with it. If you love someone, like he claims he did, you at least put up a fight and try to help them.

Again: He was 13 and severely cowed by his empathy-free, all-powerful (to Tyrion and his siblings at least) father.

[Sister Meribald]

So, now that I've read the whole thread and thought about this for a little bit, I would have to conclude this:

Tyrion Lannister is a rich, privileged dwarf. Other than these two outward circumstances though, at the end of the day, he's a regular guy. He's not the white-hat hero of the novels, or even in his own circles. But he's also not evil, degenerate, or in any other way deviant. He's a guy who has his own personality and set of circumstances, and this is how he has turned out. Normal.

And that's the best thing you can say about him.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Again: He was 13 and severely cowed by his empathy-free, all-powerful (to Tyrion and his siblings at least) father.

I think it may have been more then that. I think he honestly felt betrayed by her. I think he felt that she lied to him when she told him she loved him, and that destroyed something inside him. Then I take it he is brought in to see her by her father while she is getting gang-banged and paid for it. It didn't actually sound like a gang rape to me. I would guess that Tywin told her that she would be killed if she resisted, making it an actual rape, but that it wasn't presented as one. He finds her not exactly putting up a fight, and bam, Tyrion figures she's a whore and a liar, he's heartbroken, then forced by his father to join in.

Of course there is the counter argument that Tyrion shouldn't be getting erections at gangbangs, but I'm not one to throw stones when it comes to erections.

[Sister Meribald]

I think it may have been more then that. I think he honestly felt betrayed by her. I think he felt that she lied to him when she told him she loved him, and that destroyed something inside him. Then I take it he is brought in to see her by her father while she is getting gang-banged and paid for it. It didn't actually sound like a gang rape to me. I would guess that Tywin told her that she would be killed if she resisted, making it an actual rape, but that it wasn't presented as one. He finds her not exactly putting up a fight, and bam, Tyrion figures she's a whore and a liar, he's heartbroken, then forced by his father to join in.

Of course there is the counter argument that Tyrion shouldn't be getting erections at gangbangs, but I'm not one to throw stones when it comes to erections.

This is true. He felt betrayed by both Tysha and Tywin.

And this is how an 'honorable' rich man rapes first a girl he considers beneath him, and then the son he considers beneath him. Make them first do all the dirty work, and then spend the rest of their lives trying to pick up the pieces.

Tywin was truly a monster.

[kephv]

According to GRRM, Tyrion was the character he was asked the most about, and hence probably the most popular. Perspectives may have changed a bit post Dance, but he's certainly still a loved character, even if he does have a lot of vocal detractors here. With regards to Dance, personally those were my least favorite of his chapter -- he went on dark streak and was completely out of his element. Overall though, I think he's still a good person at heart (something I think the end of Dance showed), despite his flaws. Either way, I think Tyrion's turn for the worst is over with -- it's all uphill for him from here on out.

[capo51]

I liked Tyrion a lot at the beginning (and Peter Dinklage), but I started to stop liking him at the end of Storm. And I personally think in Dance, he becomes too self-centered. I still like him, just a lot less. I'm hoping he'll go back to a more cheerful self in the future.

[Jasta11]

Of course there is the counter argument that Tyrion shouldn't be getting erections at gangbangs, but I'm not one to throw stones when it comes to erections.

It's a chemical reaction. Not an emotional one. Every single man in the world can attest it's not something you control completely, especially at a young age. And hell, this being Tywin, it's possible he made Tyrion stand there for hours waiting for Tyrion jr. to come up and do his ugly deed. We have no precise retelling of the scene, only Tyrion's recollection, and it's not like he was in a grand emotional state at that moment, so fishing for details seems impossible.

[The Holy Goat]

He's a 13 years old dwarf. What do you want him to do, grab an axe and slaughter the entire garrison? Sheesh. He was just as helpless as Sansa was during her marriage. At the time he also thought she was just a whore and it was all an elaborate trick. Don't know about you, but when I was 13 I sure as hell didn't have to emotional strength to handle stuff like that, and I also wasn't a dwarf that got shunned and mocked for all his life. And if you (or anyone else) really suggest he was 100% consenting with raping her because he had an erection, I have a couple lessons about male anatomy to teach you.

See, this is what irks me with these sort of threads (it also happens with Dany and Stannis, but Tyrion seems to get it worse still). It's pretty presumptuous of you to assume how you would react in such a situation at 13, with a notoriously no-nonsense father pressuring you. Poster Rhaegar I Targaryen said it; the sheer amount of moral outrage makes me scratch my head. Like, is there no line between a goody two-shoes like Ned who would never do anything bad, and an amoral scumbag whose entire persona can be resumed to ''he did this bad thing so he sucks''? Can we not see that a person did bad things (and Tyrion did do several bad things, no denying that) without pointing fingers and saying he should burn in hell?

Because, so far, I see a whole lot of that. Let me be clear; Tyrion is not a good guy. That's pretty much fact. He's ruthless to the point of sometimes being callous, his relationship with women is hopelessly warped, he is petty and vindicative, and has a pretty selfish streak too. He puts others ahead of himself, that he does. But there's a vast gulf between ''not a good guy'' and ''monster''. I'm just not eager to say he's an absolute scum because he looked out for numero uno a few times too many. The one thing he's done that was 100% bad and unexcusable was the rape of the slave. He was at an incredibly low point in his life, but that's no excuse for such an act.

The rest, however? A lot of it is due both to his own personality and hard circumstances, really. Breaking Marillion's fingers was dickish, but the guy hadn't been a saint to him and was the very reason Tyrion was captured in the first place. Keeping Joffrey on the throne was loyalty to his family and position, and doesn't make him evil at all, hell he reins in his nephew a few times so it's clear he's not OK with the situation. Not caring about those sent to free Jaime is a bit of a funny accusation; nobody in these books gives two shits about commoner and soldiers save for guys like Edmure who are considered bleeding hearts. Killing the singer was also an overreaction, but he gave the guy several chances to just get out of the city, which he didn't.

The Sansa question is, I think, where a lot of the hatred for the character stems. We see ourselves that he's conflicted; he wants Sansa and the titles that come with her. But he has reservations about the deal several times. In the end, his wants win over his reservation, but that doesn't mean the latter should be ignored. And while molesting the poor girl was a bad thing, in-universe he had the right to do more yet he didn't. While it doesn't excuse Tyrion for his selfishness, I still think the first culprit here is Tywin himself for imposing a shitty situation on the both of them.

:cheers: Well said mate.