Tyrion hatred

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I don't get how you can even compare Dany's feelings for Drogo to Tyrion's feelings for Shea.

I'm not. Please read me. I asked a question and you answered it. Stockholm syndrome. I was comparing her feelings with YOURS.

[Winter's Knight]

Are...are we really arguing that Tyrion/Sansa was an arranged marriage?

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Tyrion is 26, an adult, fully aware of the situation he's in, yet he deludes himself into thinking a whore loves him

Why would he delude himself into thinking that she loved him if he never loved her?

[Mad Monkey]

Are...are we really arguing that Tyrion/Sansa was an arranged marriage?

It... was, wasn't it? I mean, it's not like they met on eHarmony. Tywin decided that they should marry, and King Joffrey commanded it. It doesn't get more arranged than that unless Reverend Sun Myung Moon shows up as High Septon.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Are...are we really arguing that Tyrion/Sansa was an arranged marriage?

I dunno. Are we? Does that blowwwwww your mind?

What are the similarities? What are the differences?

[The guy from the Vale]

I don't see how Jon is a worse misogynist than Tyrion. I like both characters, but Tyrion has a very warped relationship with women that he has never been able to fully address and I think that Jon (despite his own flaws) does not share this personality defect in any meaningful way. I'm not trying to say that Jon is some kind of feminist hero because he isn't, but he wouldn't be someone I would pick as being someone who is 'worse than [others]'.

I think a large amount of Tyrion's anger flowed from the fact that Shae fabricated some of her testimony to make him look worse. Varys 'sold him out', but by revealing true details about him that end up making him look bad. She knows that Tyrion never claimed to be the true king or she definitely knows that Sansa and Tyrion barely spoke to each other (even though she flat-out states that they were conspiring together). The fact that Shae was with Tywin gave Tyrion the opportunity to murder her, but I think that his real anger flows from his humiliation as the result of her perjury. We have seen countless situations where Tyrion explodes with anger at the thought of being mocked and demeaned, even more so than most people in this macho culture (his fiery reaction to Janos Slynt's demeaning nicknames for him, his anger at Varys's teasing, etc.); he has basically the same reaction to being mocked and teased that he has to being imprisoned and threatened with death in the Vale, even though most people would find the latter far more horrifying.

That's not to say that I don't get where Shae is coming from too. Tyrion basically stiffed her since Tywin arrived (and not in the fun way either), making her take a second job to pay for her keep while he kept expecting her to sleep with him. Tyrion wouldn't have done this to Bronn (expecting Bronn to fight for him for free while paying him in promises), and arguably Shae held out for an unreasonably long time before she gave him up. I do think that Tyrion would not have killed her if she had just abandoned him the way Bronn did, and that it was specifically her embarrassment of him damned in her in his eyes.

Sorry, formulation failure. What I meant was the other way around - Tyrion and the Ironborn are, all in all, worse misogynists than Jon, Jaime or the Dornish.

[Dany Girl]

I'm not. Please read me. I asked a question and you answered it. Stockholm syndrome. I was comparing her feelings with YOURS.

My feelings are that the Dothraki at large suck, they're murders and rapists. Their women aren't that bad usually though, they have to be tough to survive that lifestyle, even if I find the lifestyle abhorrent, I respect the women for making the best out of a bad situation. The men are usually pretty terrible though. The ones with Dany now are a lot better than they were, mainly cuz she doesn't allow raping. Outside of Dany's current tribe though they're a pretty horrible society that I in now way endorse or condone their actions. How terrible they are and the changes Dany has been able to instill, as well as her ability to survive them, are some of the big things that make me respect her.

[Winter's Knight]

Arranged marriages are simply marriages in which the parents choose the bride/groom. There is no coercion involved. When coercion is involved, it's a forced marriage, see:?

In the case of Tyrion and Sansa, the only one with a choice was Tyrion: he could choose Sansa, Lollys or marry later and he chose Sansa. He chose to marry the twelve year old who hates his family.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

I dunno. Are we? Does that blowwwwww your mind?

What are the similarities? What are the differences?

The main difference (EDIT: differences. I can count, duh. :dunce: ) I see with Tyrion and Sansa's marriage is:

1) Sansa was a prisoner of war.

2) The marriage was not approved by her family. (In her father's stead, her older brother - or even her mother - would have the authority to approve or deny a marriage for her. Neither he nor she did.)

3) Sansa was forcibly married while being threatened with the use of force for her to comply.

4) I believe that the marriage to Tyrion (or to any other Lannister; there was never a possibility that they would marry her to anybody BUT a Lannister) was an act of war against her family, as a way to steal her patrimony.

5) There is the implicit threat that once Sansa had provided an heir and possibly a spare, that she would have been killed. It may or may not be true, but Cat and Robb certainly immediately believed that was the probable outcome.

None of those things are standard for arranged marriages.

[Mad Monkey]

Arranged marriages are simply marriages in which the parents choose the bride/groom. There is no coercion involved. When coercion is involved, it's a forced marriage, see:?

In the case of Tyrion and Sansa, the only one with a choice was Tyrion: he could choose Sansa, Lollys or marry later and he chose Sansa. He chose to marry the twelve year old who hates his family.

Could you argue that a forced marriage is a subset of arranged marriage? Joffrey's legal argument was that he, as father of the realm, was in loco parentis to Sansa and could make such decisions for her. While obviously that is a twisted and cruel abuse of the concept, it does seem reasonable in principle-- for example, if a ward has no living or available parents, it does seem reasonable that his or her foster parent can make marriage matches instead despite not being a blood relative.

I think that you are right and that the distinction between an ordinary Westerosi marriage and the forced marriage of Tyrion/Sansa is important. In most arranged marriage, the goal is to benefit both families. In this marriage, the goal was to allow the Lannisters to claim lands from the Starks that they intend to physically wrest from them through conquest. In effect, the was an act of war, a more subtle but very real manifestation of the usual violence aimed at Sansa by the Lannisters. I don't blame Tyrion for this since he wasn't the architect of the plan, but I believe that he should have refused the offer because he was the only one who had enough social standing to do so -- Sansa basically had a knife to her throat and was Joffrey's ward anyway, but Tyrion could have at least fought. If Tywin wanted the marriage, Tyrion could have made him drag him to the altar.

Sorry, formulation failure. What I meant was the other way around - Tyrion and the Ironborn are, all in all, worse misogynists than Jon, Jaime or the Dornish.

OK, I agree.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Arranged marriages are simply marriages in which the parents choose the bride/groom. There is no coercion involved. When coercion is involved, it's a forced marriage, see:?

In the case of Tyrion and Sansa, the only one with a choice was Tyrion: he could choose Sansa, Lollys or marry later and he chose Sansa. He chose to marry the twelve year old who hates his family

I don't agree with your characterization of an arranged marriage. I believe there is coercion involved. I believe the parents are coercing the daughter, or a son. The son or daughter, in an arranged marriage, do not get the choice of saying "no", do they? They are being forced. If they can say no, then there is no arranged marriage, lol.

Sansa had a choice too. She could refuse, and she was threatened with death. She chose the better option, but she liked neither of them. Tyrion didn't like any of his options either, I believe. If I remember, he was not exactly thrilled with the idea at first, correct? Somebody help me because I don't have my copy of ASoS with me in the Gulf of Mexico. But he chose the best option available to him, though none were to his liking.

[Dany Girl]

I dunno. Are we? Does that blowwwwww your mind?

What are the similarities? What are the differences?

Well for starters, in a normal arranged marriage the parents make choices that they usually hope will lead to a happy life. Even Tywin probably thought Cersei would be happy being married to Robert. Parents generally want the best for their child, and hopefully it's the best politically as well. For example, Ned marrying Arya to Ramsey might have been a real consideration, but Ned would never do so if he knew what a monster Ramsey was, even if marrying a Bolton was what would be best for him and Robb down the line. Now of course some parents don't really care, and problems arise, but I think for the most part, arranged marriages take the parties involved feelings into consideration.

Sansa/Tyrion was in no way an arranged marriage. It was a political coup where they forcibly married a hostage to an ally to gain her inheritance with less bloodshed. Her feelings or well being were not taken into account. Her actual parents/ legal guardian (Cat and Robb) were not consulted. I cant see Ned arranging a marriage for Theon without Balon's approval for example. Sansa's marriage is presented as wildly unusual, and not ok.

Arranged marriages can be problematic (Robert/Cersei, Lysa/Jon) but usually end up at least acrimonious (Mace/his wife) if not filled with love (Ned/Cat). Love matches are obviously hoped for, but even love matches don't always work (Joher/Lynese).

[TheHouseHB]

Tyrion for Life. Haters gonna hate

[Errant Bard]

Somehow, Tyrion dislike seemed to only start with ADWD, and mostly include his sexual practices and his murders, but where I stand there always was a much simpler reason to dislike him: from the first chapter he appears in, he always was a self-pitying, arrogant, condescending, abrasive, trollish jerk. And he gets glorified for it, for one reason or another.

The first thing he does is insult Jon, the second thing he does is to slap his nephew because he's not playing hypocrite well enough, third thing is trying to talk Jon into isolating himself and look upon others with contempt (nearly gets Jon killed by his fellow recruits, that,) fourth is trolling the fuck out of a man knowing he can escape all the consequences, and it goes on... While he's busy being the arrogant jerkass, he still takes time to feel sorry for himself, even though he really has one of the best situations in the whole of Westeros. Money, education, food, protection, authority, he has it all, and when he chooses to be an asshole he cries about nobody loving him. Duh.

When you are a grown man who relies on money and mockeries to make up for the void you create around you by being that unbearable rich jerk, not only is it sad in itself, but you are not a likeable character in my book. He may be more likeable than Gregor Clegane or Ramsay Bolton, but really, that's like saying liquid nitrogen is hotter than absolute zero.

[Dany Girl]

I don't agree with your characterization of an arranged marriage. I believe there is coercion involved. I believe the parents are coercing the daughter, or a son. The son or daughter, in an arranged marriage, do not get the choice of saying "no", do they? They are being forced. If they can say no, then there is no arranged marriage, lol.

Sansa had a choice too. She could refuse, and she was threatened with death. She chose the better option, but she liked neither of them. Tyrion didn't like any of his options either, I believe. If I remember, he was not exactly thrilled with the idea at first, correct? Somebody help me because I don't have my copy of ASoS with me in the Gulf of Mexico. But he chose the best option available to him, though none were to his liking.

Usually the child's feelings are taken into consideration in arraigned marriages I believe. Arianne has turned down numerous marriage offers, we know these were dummy offers because her marriage had been arraigned to Visaerys but she didn't know that. I do believe that if Arianne and Visaerys had met and she hated him, Doran would not force the issue too much.

Now times of war are different, case in point Robb arranging Arya's marriage to a Frey, but even then, the child's interests are generally looked after. Daughters are brought up to do a duty to their family by agreeing to an arranged marriage, but part of the social contract if you will is that the parents won't f*** over the kid.

Sansa's choices were not Tyrion or death either. It was Tyrion or being beaten until you agree to Tyrion. The Lannisters were not going to allow her to die. Just beat her, try to force her, allow her to partially heal enough to beat her again until she does agree. Death was not an option.

[tydides]

Because he is a dick, I like Tyrion. He is unapologeticly intelligent but makes some cruel decisions regarding sex. Cool man.

[Winter's Knight]

I don't agree with your characterization of an arranged marriage. I believe there is coercion involved. I believe the parents are coercing the daughter, or a son. The son or daughter, in an arranged marriage, do not get the choice of saying "no", do they? They are being forced. If they can say no, then there is no arranged marriage, lol.

Sansa had a choice too. She could refuse, and she was threatened with death. She chose the better option, but she liked neither of them. Tyrion didn't like any of his options either, I believe. If I remember, he was not exactly thrilled with the idea at first, correct? Somebody help me because I don't have my copy of ASoS with me in the Gulf of Mexico. But he chose the best option available to him, though none were to his liking.

I speak from experience. My parents had an arranged marriage, my mother turned down two or three suitors before agreeing to my father.

In arranged marriages, the "no" is an opt out-it is assumed you will wed unless you say no. Furthermore, in Westeros, the bride and groom actually spend months if not years getting to know each other-remember that Lysa and Jaime were encouraged to interact and Brandon had been visiting Cat well before they were due to wed.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

1) Sansa was a prisoner of war.

2) The marriage was not approved by her family. (In her father's stead, her older brother - or even her mother - would have the authority to approve or deny a marriage for her. Neither he nor she did.)

3) Sansa was forcibly married while being threatened with the use of force for her to comply.

4) I believe that the marriage to Tyrion (or to any other Lannister; there was never a possibility that they would marry her to anybody BUT a Lannister) was an act of war against her family, as a way to steal her patrimony.

5) There is the implicit threat that once Sansa had provided an heir and possibly a spare, that she would have been killed. It may or may not be true, but Cat and Robb certainly immediately believed that was the probable outcome.

1. I believe "hostage" might be a better word. "Prisoner of War" is a later term, but I understand they mean basically the same thing.

2. I disagree that threat of physical force was not applied by families to their daughters or even sons in cases of arranged marriage when the bride or groom refused. There was an obligation to obey your parents.

3. I agree that the fact that Sansa's parents were not involved is a major difference. However, the King was basically in a position, legally, of being everybodys "daddy".

4. Acts of war are usually completely different then acts of marriage. One involves killing. The other doesn't.

Now, if you look at the similarities, you should notice that in both cases, the bride, or sometimes the groom, does not get much of a choice. They are obligated, by law and society, to acquiesce either to the will of their parents, or to their King, and are threatened if they do not comply. Maybe not all of them with death, however.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Arianne has turned down numerous marriage offers

She hasn't had an arranged marriage then has she? :)

I disagree that those were attempts at arranged marriages as well.

The question remains wether or not a bride or a groom has the ability to say "no" during an actual arranged marriage, and if there are necessarily consequences to that saying no.

I believe that a marriage where the bride had the option to "choose", was not an arranged marriage. The very heart of the idea of an arranged marriage is that the bride, or even the groom, does not choose or have veto authority.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Perhaps a good example would be Cersei Lannister. She was not thrilled to be marrying Robert Baratheon, and was even less thrilled when her father began to shop around for a new husband for her following his death. That's an arranged marriage.