Tyrion hatred

[Arrax]

No, he kills her because he finds her in his father's chambers. And why shouldn't she sell him out? He was taken prisoner and she had nothing because he refused to pay her. He even acknowledged that she must be doing it to get what he owes her. Because he left her with nothing through his refusal to pay her for the job she'd done, she had to find a new client, then she gets killed for it.

I don't think so. Finding her in his father's chambers gives him opportunity, but not the motive. Also, she doesn't just sell out his secret to Varys or something, she falsely accuses him at his trial when his life is at stake. Lastly, what do you mean he didn't pay her? You mean that he didn't allow her to wear jewels and velvets in public view.. as a precaution? New client is fine, but she had no reason to betray him in such a manner, yet she did.

[Jory Cassel]

Somehow, Tyrion dislike seemed to only start with ADWD, and mostly include his sexual practices and his murders, but where I stand there always was a much simpler reason to dislike him: from the first chapter he appears in, he always was a self-pitying, arrogant, condescending, abrasive, trollish jerk. And he gets glorified for it, for one reason or another.

The first thing he does is insult Jon, the second thing he does is to slap his nephew because he's not playing hypocrite well enough, third thing is trying to talk Jon into isolating himself and look upon others with contempt (nearly gets Jon killed by his fellow recruits, that,) fourth is trolling the fuck out of a man knowing he can escape all the consequences, and it goes on... While he's busy being the arrogant jerkass, he still takes time to feel sorry for himself, even though he really has one of the best situations in the whole of Westeros. Money, education, food, protection, authority, he has it all, and when he chooses to be an asshole he cries about nobody loving him. Duh.

When you are a grown man who relies on money and mockeries to make up for the void you create around you by being that unbearable rich jerk, not only is it sad in itself, but you are not a likeable character in my book. He may be more likeable than Gregor Clegane or Ramsay Bolton, but really, that's like saying liquid nitrogen is hotter than absolute zero.

couldn't agree more, never got his appeal either.

1. I believe "hostage" might be a better word. "Prisoner of War" is a later term, but I understand they mean basically the same thing.

2. I disagree that threat of physical force was not applied by families to their daughters or even sons in cases of arranged marriage when the bride or groom refused. There was an obligation to obey your parents.

3. I agree that the fact that Sansa's parents were not involved is a major difference. However, the King was basically in a position, legally, of being everybodys "daddy".

4. Acts of war are usually completely different then acts of marriage. One involves killing. The other doesn't.

Now, if you look at the similarities, you should notice that in both cases, the bride, or sometimes the groom, does not get much of a choice. They are obligated, by law and society, to acquiesce either to the will of their parents, or to their King, and are threatened if they do not comply. Maybe not all of them with death, however.

2. Quote, then.

4. Clegane burning fields is undoubtedly an act of war, yet does not involve killing.

[David Selig]

Somehow, Tyrion dislike seemed to only start with ADWD, and mostly include his sexual practices and his murders, but where I stand there always was a much simpler reason to dislike him: from the first chapter he appears in, he always was a self-pitying, arrogant, condescending, abrasive, trollish jerk. And he gets glorified for it, for one reason or another.

The first thing he does is insult Jon, the second thing he does is to slap his nephew because he's not playing hypocrite well enough, third thing is trying to talk Jon into isolating himself and look upon others with contempt (nearly gets Jon killed by his fellow recruits, that,) fourth is trolling the fuck out of a man knowing he can escape all the consequences, and it goes on... While he's busy being the arrogant jerkass, he still takes time to feel sorry for himself, even though he really has one of the best situations in the whole of Westeros. Money, education, food, protection, authority, he has it all, and when he chooses to be an asshole he cries about nobody loving him. Duh.

Let's not forget that he figured it out right in his first chapter that Jaime had crippled Bran but that didn't make him like Jaime even a bit less, he didn't even consider telling the truth to Robert or Ned so Jaime could be punished and he didn't feel the least bit guilty about protecting a guy who crippled a little kid.

I believe that a marriage where the bride had the option to "choose", was not an arranged marriage. The very heart of the idea of an arranged marriage is that the bride, or even the groom, does not choose or have veto authority.

What you are describing is a forced marriage, not an arranged one. The two kinds overlap sometimes, but far from always. Arranged marriage is simply a marriage where the bride and groom are selected by a third party (usually the parents, but not necessary). But quite often they have the right to refuse the suggestion of the third party.

[Dany Girl]

She hasn't had an arranged marriage then has she? :)

I disagree that those were attempts at arranged marriages as well.

The question remains wether or not a bride or a groom has the ability to say "no" during an actual arranged marriage, and if there are necessarily consequences to that saying no.

I believe that a marriage where the bride had the option to "choose", was not an arranged marriage. The very heart of the idea of an arranged marriage is that the bride, or even the groom, does not choose or have veto authority.

Just because we know they were false offers doesn't change it for Arianne. She thought they were legit and was allowed to say no.

I believe in most cases of arranged marriages the participants have the right to say no, but they also have a duty to say yes. Also the parents intent with the marriage is also important.

I guess you could say some arrested marriages are forced marriages, but not always. Cat was not forced to marry Ned, she chose to go through with it.

Perhaps a good example would be Cersei Lannister. She was not thrilled to be marrying Robert Baratheon, and was even less thrilled when her father began to shop around for a new husband for her following his death. That's an arranged marriage.

It's important to note that Cersei actually was pleased with the arraignment at first. She found Robert attractive and pleasant, until he said "Lyanna". That's when things changed for her, but until then she was not unhappy. I also believe that Tywin was trying to make Cersei happy and that Jon hoped that Robert would be able to be happy as well. The marriage was arranged with good intentions from all parties.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1. I believe "hostage" might be a better word. "Prisoner of War" is a later term, but I understand they mean basically the same thing.

2. I disagree that threat of physical force was not applied by families to their daughters or even sons in cases of arranged marriage when the bride or groom refused. There was an obligation to obey your parents.

3. I agree that the fact that Sansa's parents were not involved is a major difference. However, the King was basically in a position, legally, of being everybodys "daddy".

4. Acts of war are usually completely different then acts of marriage. One involves killing. The other doesn't.

Now, if you look at the similarities, you should notice that in both cases, the bride, or sometimes the groom, does not get much of a choice. They are obligated, by law and society, to acquiesce either to the will of their parents, or to their King, and are threatened if they do not comply. Maybe not all of them with death, however.

1. Okay.

2. Sure, that's possible. Examples from the text please?

Brienne managed to avoid being married and not suffering physical abuse because of it. I don't remember how many times - was it 3 times? So there's that.

3. King Joffrey claimed that right, yes. That isn't the question. The question is "is that standard practice?" It is not. At any rate, Joffrey claiming that right was fraudulent anyway, since Sansa's mother and older brother were still alive and they are the ones who have the authority over Sansa's marriage.

4. Nope. Something doesn't need to only involve killing to be an act of war. Forcible marriage under threat of physical harm while superceding the authority of a person's legal guardians for the explicit purpose of annexing the person's inherited estate - while that person is a hostage/prisoner of war - is an act of war. Hostages are supposed to be treated honorably according to their status.

Your closing paragraph: is that standard for arranged marriages? Is there support in the text for that being standard?

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Sure, that's possible. Examples from the text please?

Viserys to Danaerys. Marriage to Khal Drogo. "Don't wake the dragon". Sound familiar?

. Cat was not forced to marry Ned, she chose to go through with it.

When they agree, there is no need to apply force, is there? :) Lysa had a forcible abortion so she could be married to Jon Arryn. Wouldn't that constitute force?

. King Joffrey claimed that right, yes. That isn't the question. The question is "is that standard practice?" It is not. At any rate, Joffrey claiming that right was fraudulent anyway, since Sansa's mother and older brother were still alive and they are the ones who have the authority over Sansa's marriage.

I believe the authority of the King somewhat trumps the authority of a parent.

marriage was arranged with good intentions from all parties.

The marriage was arranged with the intent to cement the Kingdom. Nothing to do with keeping Robert or Cersei happy.

What you are describing is a forced marriage, not an arranged one. The two kinds overlap sometimes, but far from always. Arranged marriage is simply a marriage where the bride and groom are selected by a third party (usually the parents, but not necessary). But quite often they have the right to refuse the suggestion of the third party.

This does appear to be the alternative definition, but is it correct? What would be an authority on this matter?

Clegane burning fields is undoubtedly an act of war, yet does not involve killing.

It does if someone starves to death if they can't eat because their fields were burnt. :) I take your meaning though. Maybe you're right, I have to think on it.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Apparently, after reading the entries in Wikipedia, I am incorrect concerning the differences between forced and arranged marriages. I stand corrected. Dany Girl, David, and Winter's Knight are correct. Thank you for challenging my perceptions.

I continue to believe however, that some of the marriages in Westeros are "forced" rather then "arranged", due to the fact that either the bride or groom do not have veto power over the choice made by either parents or king. My terminology was wrong though, and I appreciate the correction.

[Dany Girl]

Apparently, after reading the entries in Wikipedia, I am incorrect concerning the differences between forced and arranged marriages. I stand corrected. Dany Girl, David, and Winter's Knight are correct. Thank you for challenging my perceptions.

I continue to believe however, that some of the marriages in Westeros are "forced" rather then "arranged", due to the fact that either the bride or groom do not have veto power over the choice made by either parents or king. My terminology was wrong though, and I appreciate the correction.

I don't think anyone is trying to say that many marriages are indeed forced, just that is not generally the intention. And nobody that I've seen says arranged marriages are without flaw, it's definitely a flawed system, and often the female is the loser in a bad match. Just that not all arranged marriages are inherently bad. Some turn out great in fact where some love matches end terribly.

The marriage of Tyrion to Sansa was a gross misuse of power. While in theory a king could demand marriages, this is very rare I believe. Robert or Ned never tried to force Theon to marry, when marrying him to a loyal house would be a good idea. Forcing a hostage into a marriage I believe is considered bad form, and especially marrying said hostage to someone that's viewed as a joke on top of it. It was not only an act of war, but a slap in her families face that was meant to be an insult.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

The marriage of Tyrion to Sansa was a gross misuse of power. While in theory a king could demand marriages, this is very rare I believe. Robert or Ned never tried to force Theon to marry, when marrying him to a loyal house would be a good idea. Forcing a hostage into a marriage I believe is considered bad form, and especially marrying said hostage to someone that's viewed as a joke on top of it. It was not only an act of war, but a slap in her families face that was meant to be an insult.

I can agree with that. I understand that there is a difference between the legal right to do something and the actual morality behind it. I believe the rarity of a parent or king to exercise this authority depends on the individual. Certainly Robert and Ned may balk at such action, but Tywin Lannister is not so scrupulous.

I'm still not sure about a forced marriage being defined as an act of war, but it's beside the point now.

I think we are now at the point where we can think about wether or not Tyrion Lannister should be held responsible for the forced marriage to Sansa Stark. Despite the fact that he is not necessarily in favor of it, it is not his choice, he is certainly more amiable to the match then Sansa is, and there was a different degree of coercion involved. Nevertheless, it is not Tyrion forcing Sansa to marry him. If Tyrion wanted to do that, he could have done it when he was the Hand of the King. Instead I remember him spending most of his relationship with Sansa being kind to her and attempting to protect her from his nephew's ordered beatings.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Of course the second question is wether Tyrion was obliged, morally, to refuse to marry Sansa, because she was being forced into it.

[Winter's Knight]

Of course the second question is wether Tyrion was obliged, morally, to refuse to marry Sansa, because she was being forced into it.

Morally, yes. I believe we're all obliged morally to do as little harm as possible. Not marrying a kid who hates you strikes me as a "no d'oh".

[Mad Monkey]

Morally, yes. I believe we're all obliged morally to do as little harm as possible. Not marrying a kid who hates you strikes me as a "no d'oh".

I think to an extent Tyrion understands this. I think that his desire to obtain Winterfell after having been rebuffed for Casterly Rock blinded him to this. It seems fairly obvious to anyone with a working brain that A) marrying Sansa while you are trying your hardest to kill off her entire family is horrifying and B] the North would never actually accept being ruled by a Lannister -- at least, not in Tyrion's own lifetime; even Tywin realizes that he will have to put a northman (Roose) in charge at least for some time before a claim for direct Lannister rule over Winterfell would work. For whatever reason Tyrion doesn't fully understand this though.

[Zorral]

Many a girl and / boy have been betrothed and even gone through proxy marriages when they were babies or very little children, at least among royalty and very powerful noble families. This continued in Europe up until at least the days of Napoleon. He and his Austrian bride were married by proxy initally. It was an arranged marriage. Her family made it clear that she had to go through marrying this older man, the most powerful in Europe, who had so humiliated her family for the sake of her family and her country.

Many a very wealthy royal or noble heiress was kidnapped and forced into marriage as fast as possible so her husband's family could get control of her assets. Theobald of Blois and Geoffrey of Anjou tried to kidnap Eleanor of Aquitaine on her way to Poitiers after she divorced the King of France. She was more fortunate than many a woman in her situation -- she escaped and summoned Henry II to come and marry her asap.

Many an older girl has been locked into a room by her family because she insisted she would not marry her family's arranged choice of husband. Many a girl has been starved and beaten into submission to an unwanted marriage. History is full of them, including Roman ones.

This did not happen only among noble, powerful families either.

It still happens today in many countries.

OTOH, Sansa betrothed / married to a Lannister would keep her alive longer than not being betrothed / married to a Lannister. There's not doubt either that Tyrion would do much better out of this deal than Sansa.

[Zorral]

... the North would never actually accept being ruled by a Lannister -- at least, not in Tyrion's own lifetime; even Tywin realizes that he will have to put a northman (Roose) in charge at least for some time before a claim for direct Lannister rule over Winterfell would work. For whatever reason Tyrion doesn't fully understand this though.

Not that unusual a stratagem -- put someone horrid in charge, who is entirely expendable; then the people will be glad for the change to the one really wanted to be in charge. Frank Herbert employed this in Dune -- the Harkonnen Baron plans to put "Beast Raban" in charge of Arrakis, and then swap him for his beloved, pretty nephew, Feyd, because the "people will be so grateful" after a dose of Raban. By then many, maybe most, of the rebels will have been killed or otherwise have lost heart and all shall be peaceful.

[Gneisenau]

Let's not forget that he figured it out right in his first chapter that Jaime had crippled Bran but that didn't make him like Jaime even a bit less, he didn't even consider telling the truth to Robert or Ned so Jaime could be punished and he didn't feel the least bit guilty about protecting a guy who crippled a little kid.

What you are describing is a forced marriage, not an arranged one. The two kinds overlap sometimes, but far from always. Arranged marriage is simply a marriage where the bride and groom are selected by a third party (usually the parents, but not necessary). But quite often they have the right to refuse the suggestion of the third party.

While I dislike Tyrion you can't hold it against him for not deciding the rat on his brother.

[Dany Girl]

While I dislike Tyrion you can't hold it against him for not deciding the rat on his brother.

But you would think the knowledge that your brother almost killed a child would at least change your view of him, right? You wouldn't still think rainbow shine out of his butt after learning he tried to kill a kid, would you? I get family loyalty keeps Tyrion from saying anything, even when his own life hangs in the balance (hey, look, I found 1 deed Tyrion does to protect someone else over himself! ). But I don't get his continued hero worship of his brother after. I'd definitely look at my sister differently if I knew she tried to kill a kid!

[Florina Laufeyson]

Tyrion whines too much.

[The Imperator]

I really like Tyrion. He was one of my first favorite characters to begin with. While there are many characters that I like more, Tyrion is still a character that I find interesting and quite likable. Hate him? Not at all.

[SerBarristantheOld]

C'mon. Tyrion did not really know what Jaime did. He figured it out with instinct. But he did not have legitimate proof.

[capo51]

The more I read through these arguments, the funnier it is to me that Tyrion is Martin's favorite character.