Tyrion hatred

[Brightstar_]

I'm tired, it's apparently 5 against 1, guessing all the Tyrion fans went to bed.

[Dany Girl]

While I do not agree with what he did to that girl, she was still a whore he payed for, yes it was wrong what he did, but it's not as if he raped some little girl out on the streets, as you make it sound. Her situation is not his fault.

He didn't pay her, he paid her master. In fact, he gets her beaten again because he pukes on the rug.

Sex slaves cannot consent to sex in her condition, consent has been removed. No consent = rape.

[gvewolf243]

I might be wrong about the numbers ( got that from the show) but he sent a lot of men to their deaths with his distraction when he went to lift the siege of Riverrun and captured Jaime.

Well it's actually on show. He gave 16 000 to Roose in the books. Roose lost the battle , though he still managed to maintain army. It wasn't just suicide mission that Roob organized for those 2000 in the show.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

While I do not agree with what he did to that girl, she was still a whore he paid for, yes it was wrong what he did, but it's not as if he raped some little girl out on the streets, as you make it sound. Her situation is not his fault.

And he didn't make it any better by raping her.

So if a teenage girl is kidnapped and forced into prostitution, is the guy who pays to have sex with her not a rapist, when he's doing it against her will, she's being coerced into prostitution and the money is going to her pimp? Because fuck all about that situation says to me, "This is a girl who chose to be a prostitute and is doing this entirely because she wants to and to make money off of it."

He didn't pay her, he paid her owner, because she was a slave. She is property, not someone who can actually consent to sex.

[Brightstar_]

He didn't pay her, he paid her master. In fact, he gets her beaten again because he pukes on the rug.

Sex slaves cannot consent to sex in her condition, consent has been removed. No consent = rape.

Again, this is westeros, much more common there. 90% of the men there wouldn't give a shit whether the girl was being consentual or not (though of course still disturbing and wrong, as I seem to have to state every post or you will crucify me)

And he was about to say to the master that the stain on the rug was not the girl's fault, when Jorah seized him.

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

Tyrion is not the only person whose actions and attitudes come across differently, better or worse, on rereads and with the benefit of hindsight. That's just how it is. In his case, to me, a reread just shows what was always there, not anything "new" or retconned.

But there's a tendency to over-reach here, is what I'm saying. Characters change, shit happens, but it seems that some people aren't comfortable with this fact, so they go back and try to rationalize them as having always been this way. "I should have known all along! I was deceived by the early text! But now the scales have fallen from my eyes!"

Tyrion is an especially changeable and morally 50% character, so I'm okay with waiting to see how things develop without writing his character off for dead/bad, and washing away all of his previous and potential virtue.

[Brightstar_]

And he didn't make it any better by raping her.

So if a teenage girl is kidnapped and forced into prostitution, is the guy who pays to have sex with her not a rapist, when he's doing it against her will, she's being coerced into prostitution and the money is going to her pimp? Because fuck all about that situation says to me, "This is a girl who chose to be a prostitute and is doing this entirely because she wants to and to make money off of it."

He didn't pay her, he paid her owner, because she was a slave. She is property, not someone who can actually consent to sex.

The obvious difference being that slaving is not allowed in our world, but in Essos it's common, stop trying to compare the two worlds.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Reading what some of you people type, I don't understand how you can even read the books.

[Brightstar_]

Reading what some of you people type, I don't understand how you can even read the books.

Referring to pro or anti Tyrion people? ^^

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I'm tired, it's apparently 5 against 1, guessing all the Tyrion fans went to bed.

:) I'm not going to bed, but I think both sides have had their say at this point. Nobody is convincing anybody. It's not a discussion. It's not even an argument. Some of the people who hate Tyrion REALLY hate him. No sense trying to talk them out of it. For some of them, they've probably had this argument 100 times already.

I think the deal is that some people are judging characters in a fantasy novel by modern moral standards. I understand and agree with the concept of objective moral values and goods, but I'm a bit more lenient then others it would seem. I agree that rape is rape and molestation may be molestation, but the vast majority of the characters that live in the world of ASOIAF would disagree with these modern definitions. It's difficult for me to harshly apply my own moral thinking on a person who lives in a different world then me.

[Brightstar_]

:) I'm not going to bed, but I think both sides have had their say at this point. Nobody is convincing anybody. It's not a discussion. It's not even an argument. Some of the people who hate Tyrion REALLY hate him. No sense trying to talk them out of it. For some of them, they've probably had this argument 100 times already.

I think the deal is that some people are judging characters in a fantasy novel by modern moral standards. I understand and agree with the concept of objective moral values and goods, but I'm a bit more lenient then others it would seem. I agree that rape is rape and molestation may be molestation, but the vast majority of the characters that live in the world of ASOIAF would disagree with these modern definitions. It's difficult for me to harshly apply my own moral thinking on a person who lives in a different world then me.

Thank you for this post

[Buried Treasure]

The obvious difference being that slaving is not allowed in our world, but in Essos it's common, stop trying to compare the two worlds.

Common in Essos, not in Westeros. So Tyrions own cultural standards don't defend keeping girls as slaves. I'm all for cultural relativism when reading these books, but that means judging characters by the acceptable standards of behavior of their society, not judging by the lowest common denominator.

[David Selig]

:) I'm not going to bed, but I think both sides have had their say at this point. Nobody is convincing anybody. It's not a discussion. It's not even an argument. Some of the people who hate Tyrion REALLY hate him. No sense trying to talk them out of it. For some of them, they've probably had this argument 100 times already.

I think the deal is that some people are judging characters in a fantasy novel by modern moral standards. I understand and agree with the concept of objective moral values and goods, but I'm a bit more lenient then others it would seem. I agree that rape is rape and molestation may be molestation, but the vast majority of the characters that live in the world of ASOIAF would disagree with these modern definitions. It's difficult for me to harshly apply my own moral thinking on a person who lives in a different world then me.

Then you shouldn't defending Tyrion, he's a kinslayer, which by Westerosi standards makes him the lowest of the low - complete scumbag, criminal and sinner, cursed by gods and men, etc.

[Nictarion]

I like Tyrion. I the he's one of the best characters. He's definitely got darker as the story has progressed. I believe GRRM said one of his characters could be compared to Walter White, I think Tyrion would be the closest fit.

Tyrion's interactions with his siblings, and his father are among my favorite parts of the story. The Lannisters are so dysfunctional, and entertaining. I love them all.

[Brightstar_]

Then you shouldn't defending Tyrion, he's a kinslayer, which by Westerosi standards makes him the lowest of the low - complete scumbag, criminal and sinner, cursed by gods and men, etc.

I'm sorry but you are precisly who he is reffering to when he states that some people really hate Tyrion and that there is no sense in trying to reason with you about him.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

Sometimes it's hard to find the middle ground, but it is possible to be interested and entertained by Tyrion (and the rest of the Lannisters, hell, even Ramsay), and still be repelled and revolted by who they are and what they do. It's "both/and" not "either/or".

Tyrion is one of GRRM's more amazing characters, especially since he inspires such an impassioned discussion. Perhaps that is the point of his character?

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I'm all for cultural relativism when reading these books, but that means judging characters by the acceptable standards of behavior of their society, not judging by the lowest common denominator.

I can agree with all of that. I wonder if Tyrion was just viewing her as a whore though rather then as a slave. One can easily say that all women in Westeros were basically slaves as well, except for nobility, and even they were usually subject to their male relatives.

Tyrion was always a whoremonger. I don't think anyone is trying to say that he's a white knight. I believe all can agree that he's a complex amalgam of good and bad actions.

[Lord Voldemort's Toes]

Reading what some of you people type, I don't understand how you can even read the books.

IKR? It's questionable whether ANY of the "whores" in Westeros or Essos are capable of giving consent. LF's brothels didn't seem too savory in their treatment, and was basically sex slavery in all but name. That means EVERY male character who has visited a whore is at least somewhat rapey. Then there's the outright rapists on top of everything.

I'm not saying that they are excused because of this...just that you then have to accept that you're reading a story an about dudes who treat women shitty, and must therefore move on and continue judging them by the remaining available moral distinctions, or just stop out of moral outrage and protest.

[King Tyrion I]

I think Tyrion has a lot of fans, but haters are always louder then lovers.

:agree: I am one of those fans.

[gvewolf243]

I'm tired, it's apparently 5 against 1, guessing all the Tyrion fans went to bed.

I'm still here. :) Though i love Tyrion , he still has flaws and some not pleasant actions. Yh, He gets darker in DwD and i don't like it , however i hope that situation will get better in WoW and his chapters will be more interesting to read, than in last book.