Mithras Posted April 26, 2014 Author Share Posted April 26, 2014 I know that quote but that is more like a practical discourse. Of course Robert won the throne with his warhammer. But legally speaking, did he claim the throne by the right of conquest or by attainting the remaining Targaryens (Vis/Dany) and claiming the IT by blood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosimaistheHottest Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Found it! From Clash: Right of Conquest.. Robert's bloodties were only used as cover. By law, he would no longer have a right to the throne due to killing Rhaegar, the heir to the throne, on purpose. where does that come from? Where is that law? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 where does that come from? Where is that law? I thought that was an existing law in Westeros..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondancer Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Meh, Renly can talk all he wants - it is the stance that suits his own plans. The right of the conquest is for those with unprecedented display of force ie having dragons. Robert ascended to the throne aided by the blood ties; no high lord would consider him otherwise, to begin with - the high Lords grant the power, even Aegon I knew that. And we're soo off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Meh, Renly can talk all he wants - it is the stance that suits his own plans.The right of the conquest is for those with unprecedented display of force ie having dragons. Robert ascended to the throne aided by the blood ties; no high lord would consider him otherwise, to begin with - the high Lords grant the power, even Aegon I knew that.And we're soo off topic.Robert had his blood-ties, but he was not the next in line, not even with Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon dead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 26, 2014 Author Share Posted April 26, 2014 Robert had his blood-ties, but he was not the next in line, not even with Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon dead... Since Viserys and Dany were attainted, I think Robert was the next in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Since Viserys and Dany were attainted, I think Robert was the next in line. Not being a native speaker, what does attainted mean? :) Google translate fails me here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 26, 2014 Author Share Posted April 26, 2014 Not being a native speaker, what does attainted mean? :) Google translate fails me here They were disinherited and lost all their birthrights. Probably all the rebel Lords (Stark, Tully, Arryn, Baratheon) agreed to it which makes it something like a Great Council decision. None other dared to defy them (except Dorne and Jon Arryn brought them to the Realm later). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 They were disinherited and lost all their birthrights. Probably all the rebel Lords (Stark, Tully, Arryn, Baratheon) agreed to it which makes it something like a Great Council decision. None other dared to defy them (except Dorne and Jon Arryn brought them to the Realm later). Well, they were disinherited by the rebels, which makes this all very questionable legally. But it is in Westeros, IMO, the way it was in the real world in those sort times: the right of the strongest, survival of the fittest. The rebels had an army, while Dany and Viserys didn't. Dany and Viserys legally hadn't done anything to lose their birthright.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 26, 2014 Author Share Posted April 26, 2014 Dany and Viserys legally hadn't done anything to lose their birthright.. Their father and big brother did :) And it is true that they didnot have the armies to protect their rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondancer Posted April 26, 2014 Share Posted April 26, 2014 Since Viserys and Dany were attainted, I think Robert was the next in line.Indeed. Even GRRM's commented that Robert's ascension was the logical course of the events. I'm paraphrasing, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 this is awesome..the weak link is of course, Viserys daughter marrying a Lannister.. but there is still time to build that up.. Especially with Tyrion and BBP together in Meereen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGR Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 I think the OP is great but I find hard to believe that she was the mother of 2 Lannisters sons and that would not be brought up until now. Especially when Cercei was proposed to marry Rhaegar.I still think that Elaena was the mother of Baelor, Maekar and Rhaegel wifes. Maybe even Daemon Blackfyre wife (who could be Jeyne Waters also). There is no mention on text, off course, but does not make sense that all those Targaryen princes would not marry within the family.I think the only hint that is given is Valarr hair with the golden-silver drill. Maybe a trait that came straight from Elaena? Off course that Daeron II could have 4 four daughters (making his children total up to 8, almost as many as Jaehaerys I) but the only daughter mentioned is Aelinor, which I find weird.The problem with my idea is: who could be their father? Who would be important enough to be "raised" as Master of Coin but his house not important enough that there is no mention on the books by now? Hard to believe that could be any of the great houses...Maybe an extint one? House Cargyll (flags are seen in Ashford Tourney, members in the past were Kingsguard, meaning the could be somewhat important)? House Cole (directly envolved in the Dance of the Dragons, that could also mean they were some sort important vassal)? House Lothston (like House Strong, held Harrenhall and was consider strong. Strongs were involved in the Dance. Also Manfred Lothston betrayed Daemon Blackfyre. The reason he support Daemon in the first place was because his daughter was his wife)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted April 27, 2014 Author Share Posted April 27, 2014 I think the OP is great but I find hard to believe that she was the mother of 2 Lannisters sons and that would not be brought up until now. Especially when Cercei was proposed to marry Rhaegar. Maybe the very existence of such an offer (which Tywin found plausible enough to voice it) explains something to us. How many times we observe Targaryens marrying a person with no dragon blood at all? I still think that Elaena was the mother of Baelor, Maekar and Rhaegel wifes. Maybe even Daemon Blackfyre wife (who could be Jeyne Waters also). There is no mention on text, off course, but does not make sense that all those Targaryen princes would not marry within the family.I think the only hint that is given is Valarr hair with the golden-silver drill. Maybe a trait that came straight from Elaena? Off course that Daeron II could have 4 four daughters (making his children total up to 8, almost as many as Jaehaerys I) but the only daughter mentioned is Aelinor, which I find weird.The problem with my idea is: who could be their father? Who would be important enough to be "raised" as Master of Coin but his house not important enough that there is no mention on the books by now? Hard to believe that could be any of the great houses...Maybe an extint one? House Cargyll (flags are seen in Ashford Tourney, members in the past were Kingsguard, meaning the could be somewhat important)? House Cole (directly envolved in the Dance of the Dragons, that could also mean they were some sort important vassal)? House Lothston (like House Strong, held Harrenhall and was consider strong. Strongs were involved in the Dance. Also Manfred Lothston betrayed Daemon Blackfyre. The reason he support Daemon in the first place was because his daughter was his wife)? The mother of Baelor and his siblings is Myriah Martell. Eleana was born in 150 and Baelor was born in 170. She is too old to be a match for them or Daemon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 I think the OP is great but I find hard to believe that she was the mother of 2 Lannisters sons and that would not be brought up until now. Especially when Cercei was proposed to marry Rhaegar.I still think that Elaena was the mother of Baelor, Maekar and Rhaegel wifes. Maybe even Daemon Blackfyre wife (who could be Jeyne Waters also). There is no mention on text, off course, but does not make sense that all those Targaryen princes would not marry within the family.I think the only hint that is given is Valarr hair with the golden-silver drill. Maybe a trait that came straight from Elaena? Off course that Daeron II could have 4 four daughters (making his children total up to 8, almost as many as Jaehaerys I) but the only daughter mentioned is Aelinor, which I find weird.The problem with my idea is: who could be their father? Who would be important enough to be "raised" as Master of Coin but his house not important enough that there is no mention on the books by now? Hard to believe that could be any of the great houses...Maybe an extint one? House Cargyll (flags are seen in Ashford Tourney, members in the past were Kingsguard, meaning the could be somewhat important)? House Cole (directly envolved in the Dance of the Dragons, that could also mean they were some sort important vassal)? House Lothston (like House Strong, held Harrenhall and was consider strong. Strongs were involved in the Dance. Also Manfred Lothston betrayed Daemon Blackfyre. The reason he support Daemon in the first place was because his daughter was his wife)?As paperwaver pointed out, Baelor's wife mother was known. I do however think that Elaene was the mother of Daemon's and Maekar's wife. I doubt they would give a daughter of her to Rhaegal when they look at Elaene's trackrecord (dominating her husbands), seems a bit of a risk :P But providing a wife for Daemon and Maekar makes sense (eventhough with Daemon it's only just possible). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Maybe the very existence of such an offer (which Tywin found plausible enough to voice it) explains something to us. How many times we observe Targaryens marrying a person with no dragon blood at all? The mother of Baelor and his siblings is Myriah Martell. Eleana was born in 150 and Baelor was born in 170. She is too old to be a match for them or Daemon. Alicent Hightower and Myriah Martell come to mind :) And further there are lots of Targaryens whose wives we don't yet know. Tywin was the most powerful lord in the Seven Kingdoms, after House Targaryen. It would make sense for a child of his to marry a child of Aerys. As paperwaver pointed out, Baelor's wife was known. I do however think that Elaene was the mother of Daemon's and Maekar's wife. I doubt they would give a daughter of her to Rhaegal when they look at Elaene's trackrecord (dominating her husbands), seems a bit of a risk :P But providing a wife for Daemon and Maekar makes sense (eventhough with Daemon it's only just possible). You mean mother, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGR Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 The mother of Baelor and his siblings is Myriah Martell. Eleana was born in 150 and Baelor was born in 170. She is too old to be a match for them or Daemon. I was not talking about his mother. I was talking about his wife. Eleana would be Baelor mother-in-law, not his wife. I also said that Eleana would be the mother-in-law of Maekar, Rhaegel and Daemon Blackfyre. As paperwaver pointed out, Baelor's wife was known. I am sorry, I did not know that. So who is Baelor Breakspear wife? Who is the mother of Valarr and Matarys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 You mean mother, right? woops, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGR Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 woops, yes. So who is Baelor's wife? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 woops, yes. Ah, I already thought I had missed something major :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.