R + L = J v 71

[MtnLion]

I won't as far as to call it betrayal, but Ned letting Jon join the NW at such a young age, without telling him about his birth first was an incredibly dicky move. Forget R+L and claims to the IT, he had a right to know in any case, period.

Think about Ned's situation: He is going to King's Landing to be around people who knew Rhaegar well. He could not leave Jon in Winterfell with Catelyn. Jon wants to join the Night's Watch. Jon is too young to take the vows, yet, there is time to explain to him before he takes his vows. (It is reasonable to think that the letter that Ned wants to send is to Jon.)

[Whatever]

Think about Ned's situation: He is going to King's Landing to be around people who knew Rhaegar well. He could not leave Jon in Winterfell with Catelyn. Jon wants to join the Night's Watch. Jon is too young to take the vows, yet, there is time to explain to him before he takes his vows. (It is reasonable to think that the letter that Ned wants to send is to Jon.)

I can think about it, and still not like it. Once he's said the vows he's bound - again, I'm not simply talking in R+L terms. Even if he was only Wylla's son and wanted the chance to go gallivanting around the kingdom looking for his mother? now he can't.

[The God of Death]

Is there anyone in this thread right now who is actually not convinced of R + L = J?

If so, what do you believe Ned's promise to Lyanna was? The one in which he mentions the "price he has paid" for keeping this promise?

[Lyse Stark]

Is there anyone in this thread right now who is actually not convinced of R + L = J?

If so, what do you believe Ned's promise to Lyanna was? The one in which he mentions the "price he has paid" for keeping this promise?

I think it was to raise Jon Snow at Winterfell as his own. He paid the price in lies and that have haunted him ever since.

[FittleLinger]

Is there anyone in this thread right now who is actually not convinced of R + L = J?

If so, what do you believe Ned's promise to Lyanna was? The one in which he mentions the "price he has paid" for keeping this promise?

I've heard some nonbelievers say that it was to bury her in Winterfell :dunno:

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

:lol: isn't that what every 16 year old wants? to be buried in their hometown?

"Promise me, Ned, promise me that you'll bring my remains back to Winterfell, and put them in the crypt with the Kings of old" -- nope, that doesn't seem right.

[FittleLinger]

:lol: isn't that what every 16 year old wants? to be buried in their hometown?

"Promise me, Ned, promise me that you'll bring my remains back to Winterfell, and put them in the crypt with the Kings of old" -- nope, that doesn't seem right.

Yeah, exactly.

[Ygrain]

:lol: isn't that what every 16 year old wants? to be buried in their hometown?

"Promise me, Ned, promise me that you'll bring my remains back to Winterfell, and put them in the crypt with the Kings of old" -- nope, that doesn't seem right.

Yeah, exactly.

/gasp/ How can you belittle the ultimate sacrifice which Ned had to make to transport Lyanna's bones to Winterfell?! How can you make light of the PTSD it caused him for the next fourteen years? Have you no sympathies for the poor man's plight? He erred on the side AND had to bring his sister's bones home, what is there not to understand about his traumatized silence? You are just overanalysing things because you want Jon some cliched lost heir to the throne but GRRM would never write anything so cheesy and obvious.

[Ygrain]

And let me add that I am totally disappoint, I was told there was a sarcastic font, and all I found was a comic one. Pffft. No certainties in this vile world.

[Fred of Ashai]

Your own construction, supported neither by the text nor by SSMs. GRRM was asked about polygamy twice, and in both cases, gave an elusive answer with zero reference to any arrangements with the Faith.

Your JonCon argument holds no water, either, and you repeating it over and over makes it no truer. FAegon's issue is not polygamy per se but his unproven claim, unstable position and especially, he can't afford to piss off Dany, marriage to whom would settle those issues once and for all.

I noticed that you disagreed when I mentioned this before. I think Connington used a phrase that has a very specific meaning in ordinary conversational English: if he marries, he will no longer be "free" to marry Dany. A single adult is free to marry. A divorced adult is free to marry. A married adult with a living spouse is not free to marry because it would be illegal to do so.

So, if it was just that having another wife already would diminish Aegon's prospects of persuading Dany to marry him, Connington would have used a different word.

I think my take on the settlement of the dispute with the Faith is good because it explains why Connington thinks polygamy is illegal and because it is a logical conclusion from what we do know. Jaehaerys negotiated peace. The Faith gave up its army. Jaehaerys gave up something that offended the Faith and we know it wasn't incest. What else were the Targaryens doing before that time that offended the Faith, but that they apparently have not done since?

I don't think much of what Jorah said because he was out to get something for himself (marriage to Dany), coming from Bear Island he probably had little knowledge of the terms of the settlement of the Faith uprising, and they were over in Essos where no one in Westeros would likely care what the Dragon Queen was doing. Also, as I mentioned, even if Jorah did know what he was talking about, he was part of Dany's plans to re-invade Westeros using dragons, such that she would be in a position to wipe away whatever arrangements Jaehaerys made with the Faith. Rhaegar, though, was not in a position just to (secretly) throw out a 200 year old law.

[Wolfking007]

I noticed that you disagreed when I mentioned this before. I think Connington used a phrase that has a very specific meaning in ordinary conversational English: if he marries, he will no longer be "free" to marry Dany. A single adult is free to marry. A divorced adult is free to marry. A married adult with a living spouse is not free to marry because it would be illegal to do so.

So, if it was just that having another wife already would diminish Aegon's prospects of persuading Dany to marry him, Connington would have used a different word.

I think my take on the settlement of the dispute with the Faith is good because it explains why Connington thinks polygamy is illegal and because it is a logical conclusion from what we do know. Jaehaerys negotiated peace. The Faith gave up its army. Jaehaerys gave up something that offended the Faith and we know it wasn't incest. What else were the Targaryens doing before that time that offended the Faith, but that they apparently have not done since?

I don't think much of what Jorah said because he was out to get something for himself (marriage to Dany), coming from Bear Island he probably had little knowledge of the terms of the settlement of the Faith uprising, and they were over in Essos where no one in Westeros would likely care what the Dragon Queen was doing. Also, as I mentioned, even if Jorah did know what he was talking about, he was part of Dany's plans to re-invade Westeros using dragons, such that she would be in a position to wipe away whatever arrangements Jaehaerys made with the Faith. Rhaegar, though, was not in a position just to (secretly) throw out a 200 year old law.

I can't remember right now, but is there anywhere in the book where is mentioned that Faith condemned poligamy?

[The God of Death]

lol, exactly.

The idea that Ned's promise to Lyanna for which he has "continued to pay the price" was to carry her bones to Winterfell is beyond ridiculous.

Not to mention - what has Ned been lying about for 14 years? If Jon Snow really was Ned's his son... then he wasn't lying about Jon Snow, was he?

Ugghh, it's just so ridiculous how anyone with a brain can be presented with this evidence and still think that Jon is Ned's son.

[J. Stargaryen]

I noticed that you disagreed when I mentioned this before. I think Connington used a phrase that has a very specific meaning in ordinary conversational English: if he marries, he will no longer be "free" to marry Dany. A single adult is free to marry. A divorced adult is free to marry. A married adult with a living spouse is not free to marry because it would be illegal to do so.

So, if it was just that having another wife already would diminish Aegon's prospects of persuading Dany to marry him, Connington would have used a different word.

I think my take on the settlement of the dispute with the Faith is good because it explains why Connington thinks polygamy is illegal and because it is a logical conclusion from what we do know. Jaehaerys negotiated peace. The Faith gave up its army. Jaehaerys gave up something that offended the Faith and we know it wasn't incest. What else were the Targaryens doing before that time that offended the Faith, but that they apparently have not done since?

I don't think much of what Jorah said because he was out to get something for himself (marriage to Dany), coming from Bear Island he probably had little knowledge of the terms of the settlement of the Faith uprising, and they were over in Essos where no one in Westeros would likely care what the Dragon Queen was doing. Also, as I mentioned, even if Jorah did know what he was talking about, he was part of Dany's plans to re-invade Westeros using dragons, such that she would be in a position to wipe away whatever arrangements Jaehaerys made with the Faith. Rhaegar, though, was not in a position just to (secretly) throw out a 200 year old law.

I always took this as a hint that JonCon didn't know Rhaegar as well as he thought he did, or would have liked to. That is, he's not in Rhaegar's inner circle and is completely oblivious when it comes to the nature of R&L's relationship.

As far as the Faith, what they got from Jaehaerys was a pardon and the promise that the Iron Throne would defend the Faith, once the Faith Militant laid down their swords.

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Is there anyone in this thread right now who is actually not convinced of R + L = J?

If so, what do you believe Ned's promise to Lyanna was? The one in which he mentions the "price he has paid" for keeping this promise?

at least one is the same one when he swears to Robert to protect his children as if they were his own

[FittleLinger]

I just noticed that in ADWD Davos I, where he meets Lord Godrick Borell, first, Rhaegar is mentioned (albeit Rhaegar Frey), him (Frey) losing his wife and wanting to have another one that was promised to him. After that, we have Eddard, who allegedly impregnated the fisherman's daughter, and then Ned himself saying that in this world, only winter is certain ;)

Another thing, probably unrelated. Lord Borell says he's got a lot of spices from a "hazel-eyed maid", where he certainly means a ship. Could this have any connection to the Shy maid or it's crew? WE get the name and description of the Shy maid in the previous chapter of the book. Probably it's crew needed some passage through the Sisters at some time and bought Borell's favor with rare and expensive eastern spices? Maybe not though, interesting nonetheless.

[Alia of the knife]

Agreed. These troll may keep trolling, but they will eventually be proved painfully wrong when R+L=J is proven.

I remembered that when I first heard this "theory" I laughed histerically. For some reason. I probably just need help, or maybe I have an automatic system of coping with "disgusting".

:ack: :stillsick:

[Jory Cassel]

Is there anyone in this thread right now who is actually not convinced of R + L = J?

If so, what do you believe Ned's promise to Lyanna was? The one in which he mentions the "price he has paid" for keeping this promise?

Most absurd one I've read so far was that she gave birth to a dragon-child like Rhaenyra and wanted Ned to promise that he would not tell anyone;

closely followed by her asking Ned to promise that he would not tell anyone she willingly eloped and was not kidnapped as she was ashamed of it.

[Alia of the knife]

Going back to precedents and propensities, I do worry about the prominence of Rhaenyras story, particularly her second husband and uncle, Prince Daemon. :stillsick:

Oh the foreshadowings......

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Boy this is intense! ***Gets popcorn***

[Cubarey]

"As far as we could tell, this was never an issue between them. Is it possible that Ned told Jon about it? He kept it from Catelyn, but she was still a stranger to him; Jon is Ned's trusted mentor, and Hand of the King; Jon Snow's parentage would be a pretty important state secret Jon Arryn had a right to know about. If there was anyone Ned would confide in anyone, it would be Jon Arryn - and Jon Arryn, in turn, might have advised Ned to keep it secret from even Cat."

This would have been a terrible idea for Ned to do. Arryn had fostered him but had also fostered Robert. He was Robert's Hand and telling Robert that not only had a legitimate Targ heir survived and was in Westros but was under the protection of the Stark's who were Roberts Wardens of the North would have been Arryn's duty.

Jon was also a Stark family name, Jon Stark was King of the North before the conquest.

Interesting that Ned would name L's son Jon considering the above.