Gerold Dayne, Squire at the Tower of joy?

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

snip.

Ah,Rhaenys, you make far too much sense.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I must say i was astonished when i read this but i dont think that Doran or Oberyn would have a big problem with Jon,they do not hold the children for their father's sins.What i think is that Doran thinks he will have no control over Jon,he is a basically a stanger to him and has influence to him and why should he approach him when he thinks there is a slight chance that his sister's son is alive?Again no reason but if Jon

somehow lays a claim because of Darkstar,Doran does not know him and does not have any influence over him,the best thing he can do is to keep the truth to himself and kill the last person who knows it.

I like the idea of astonishing people. :cool4: Thank you.

[Alia of the knife]

And so to the talk of venom & Vipers, what has oft been taken as an indicator he is the son of Oberyn I think implies a life of threat.

"Watch where you put your feet," "It has been a while since prince Oberyn milked the local vipers"

"I was weaned on Venom Dalt, any Viper takes a bite of me will rue it."

He was weaned on venom ie: he endured prince Oberyn's venom from a young age when the Martell Princes began their campaign to keep him quiet, not that he was ever going to speak of the ToJ, and this is why he is so angry, he proclaims any Viper takes a bite of him will rue it. That sounds like a threat to me, he's grown up now he's a man not a boy and he has honed his swordsmanship and won't be pushed around any more. if they come for him now they'll regret it.

Going back to my content and reading this, and the analogy really caught my eye.

In many cultures and their courts, some of the highborn would take bits of poison from the time they were young to actually provide the body with its own defense against poison, (or so that was the logic), and given the reputation for the treacherous Martell court, I took DS statement as literal, but the idea that its more symbolic really makes sense as well.

[Florina Laufeyson]

OoooOooOOo

this is a nice bit of crackpottery indeed! Good read, this thread has been! I love me some Darkstar, so it would be kinda awesome if he were that relevant!

[Woofless]

Re the discussion further back about whether the KG have squires, surely ALL knights HAVE to have squires. Who would clean and look after their armour otherwise? Who would buckle them into it?

The fact that there is no mention of other KG having squires in the books doesn't mean anything other than it wasn't important to mention any of them.

[Bryanfury]

If Gerald is called dangerous for knowing the secrets of the ToJ, that implies the people calling him dangerous know as well. Which just isn't the case; if Oberyn or Doran knew shit about what happened there'd be some clue

[Alia of the knife]

If Gerald is called dangerous for knowing the secrets of the ToJ, that implies the people calling him dangerous know as well. Which just isn't the case; if Oberyn or Doran knew shit about what happened there'd be some clue

Not if Martin the author wasn't ready to reveal that information yet.

I'd say "keep reading."

[Booknerd2]

Read the OP, and now I'm going to go back and read everything. Crap, this came out a few months ago and I didn't see it.

So this is like a really rough and gnarly brainstorm of a few things.

Interesting and in general just thought-provoking regarding all these people in Dorne and what the hell went on, and what is really going on.

I remember reading that the first time and how it stuck out, and you get that weird feeling like something is off, really, that something is hanging in the air, but you just can't put your finger on it. That is how I felt when I read that "most dangerous man in Dorne" line.

Because I had to think about who it is coming from, what we know so far, and who it is directed at. Compared to truly dangerous people like LF and Varys and their ilk, and even others more warrior/battle veined, (not saying that he can't kick some ass, but how good he is, is still not as clear as other characters, fighting wise) and compared to Oberyn in life, and Doran, and all the machinations he has going on, Darkstar is not in that league, or maybe I shouldn't say that, only like it didn't feel like that comment was a fit, and I didn't know what exactly was trying to be conveyed or hung on Darkstar. And it is not dangerous meaning due to what happened to Myrcella or that he can be a tough guy, great swordsman, troublemaker, loose cannon, or just a general pain in the ass, or even something else, which it looks like anyway.

I agree also that it has to be information he has, and possibly there has been a turn or something that Doran is expecting or apprehensive of…meaning that saying that someone can be dangerous bodes more that he is concerned about something for the future, based on something we aren't aware of yet. Not dangerous meaning he has already shown some type of inclination from past events alone necessarily, this sounds like something that exists that hasn't hatched yet, if that makes sense.

Almost like Doran knows he has something, has some type of edge or leverage, that he can't plan for or control, depending. I could see that potentially.

Still processing and I wish I could word things a bit better, but I still also would like to read the entire thread. One of those days where you know you can articulate better but the brain is still whirring…lol!

Just to note, I have always been interested too in the two Daynes we know of and how Darkstar is portrayed very differently from Edric Dayne. Now I know there are differences of course, two individuals, age, and also one is of the Starfall Daynes and the other High Hermitage.

But it looks like Edric is on the likely track for Dawn, or I thought so... (could be off though depending) and he came off as being an ok kid and full of potential and not the hothead in our brief meeting with him. And Edric squired for Beric, and that seemed arranged due to the impending marriage with his Aunt Allyria that, unfortunately, was not to be.

I don't know about all of this, but I am open to looking at it some more. That dangerous thing based on face value and him acting like an ass, doesn't seem to cut it or jive.

But if even some of this is true, that flatness and lack of three dimensions that sometimes people remark about with Darkstar/Dorkstar, well, if you are on the right track, that would change it, if even half of his backstory is as interesting as what you put forth.

I didn't think so…was never sure. I just thought it is the sleight of hand stuff with the author again. Making the guy look one way, but really there is more to it than that with the hand behind his back. It never made sense considering going back to all the rich, multilayered stuff going on with the Martells, especially Doran and his very long term plans he had going, well frankly, to have a one note clown appear in these Doran and Arianne arcs; it didn't make sense then for him to be considered "dangerous" and especially knowing know what has really been going on with the very man who said that about Gerold. There might be more to Darkstar. We just have to wait for book 6 and keep reading.

Also, now we don't know of any other members of HH, and Arthur's brother was older, and no Edric yet at that time... So Darkstar, for him to squire, that would be a good spot for him. And no other boys in the family of that age, that we know of, so they could send him out and why not with Arthur? Could be, hey, let us send him to family and he is the sword of the morning, after all. The family would hope Gerold might be the next young man who wields Dawn after Arthur dies, right? Because Edric isn't born yet. Because TOJ is 283 and Edric is born 287.

Just throwing stuff out. I want to read the OP again and the thread and I need to nest on all this info again and let it marinate.

[Bryanfury]

Not if Martin the author wasn't ready to reveal that information yet.

I'd say "keep reading."

Hints and reveals are different things. Hints are what make the reveal pay off, as opposed to being completely out of the blue and/or illogical. I'd say "read again".

[TheKingoftheSevenKingdoms]

Even if this was true, what's Darkstar going to do with this information? Jon is at the Wall and is the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, and has (at least by A Dance with Dragons) sworn to father no children, claim no lands or titles or crowns. Aegon has already landed in the Stormlands with at least half of the Golden Company, whilst Daenerys has three dragons, Unsullied, Dothraki and some mercenary parties. They seem like the more viable option right now then Jon Snow.

Something is off about the Tower of Joy. Something else happened their besides the showdown, something that GRRM hasn't shown us yet. I'm not talking about R + L = J, but maybe someone survived and is living inconspicuous?

[Alia of the knife]

Hints and reveals are different things. Hints are what make the reveal pay off, as opposed to being completely out of the blue and/or illogical. I'd say "read again".

The point is, just because there have not been any hints up until now doesn't mean there won't be in the future.

The Martells say nothing about Rhaegar, and yet GRRM said in an interview that the Martells were angry over Rhaegars treatment of Elia.

I imagine as the books focus more on Dorne, we'll get more information on Dorne.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Holy crap, I've just discovered this thread and the theories here make a lot of sense. :cheers:

[Alia of the knife]

Unless his only plan was maim Myrcella to start a war rather than outright kill her, (and maybe it was), he couldn't be the most dangerous man in Dorne because of his aim.

There is also the almost karmic connection between himself, Jaime and the Starks as DS does to Jaimes daughter as Jaime did to Neds son.

The old gods work in mysterious ways.

[Shadow Cat 75]

While there isn't much solid evidence for this idea, it makes a lot of sense that he could have been a squire at the Tower of Joy and it wouldn't take a lot of work to have it done and it would free up Bran who is mostly likely to revile the events at the tower through Bloodraven to do something else, more information on the others most likely.

[EddardsHead]

I feel like i'm the only person who thinks that Darkstar's only the most dangerous man in Dorne because he just sliced Cersei's daughter's ear off so he will be severely tortured if caught, making him extremely dangerous to be seen around.

[Watcher_inthe_Woods]

Just found this and love it!! I warmed up to Gerold on my rereads and believe him to be a "don't judge a book by it's cover" kind of character.

[sj4iy]

All of Westeros was at the ToJ, it seems

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I don't believe there are any examples of Kingsguard taking on a Squire.

Their duty is to the King, they forsake everything that could interfere with that duty.

Good luck looking after all your weapons and putting on plate armour on your own. Of course they have squires, all knights need squires. Indeed it's strange that more squires aren't mentioned.

Remember Martin's SSM, just because someone isn't mention it doesn't mean they are not there, every lord and knight and nothern noble would would have a squire, otherwise they wouldn't be able to prepare for battle.

[Marcel]

BIg problem with this theory:

It means Doran knows the truth of well, so once again his point as a character is kind of moot.

The best moment for Doran ever disclose Jon's parentage would be before Ned's death - if LF didn't messed with everything, Doran was planning a rebellion against the Baratheons - knowlegde about Jon would be a leverage against Ned to seed dissent between him and the Baratheon dynasty in this Dorne rebellion scenario. Anyway, Gerold could be Hightower's squire and yet the theory would still hold water. From the books I believe we can pretty much be sure that anything Rhaegar was planning he told Ser Oswell Whent and Ser Arthur Dayne. Went probably helped in all Harrenhal's shadow council affair, Dayne was his best friend and confident and both probably helped him in Lyanna's abduction. Hightower is the strange in the tower of joy, sent there by Aerys to summon his son.

I have to reread the books to see if it is common to choose squires between members of the same family or if this is another of the relationships created to strengthen ties between families, such as marriage and fostering kids. If so, it would be more likely that Arthur asked Hightower to accept Gerold Dayne as his squire, than to choose him as his squire. If he was Hightower's squire, it would explain his presence in the tower of joy, because Hightower only appeared there under Aerys orders, to summom Rhaegar to King's Landing. Rhaegar then left to KL, ordering Hightower to stay there with his accomplices (Oswell and Arthur). Hightower was the only one there with a squire, because Rhaegar never told him his plans and didn't ask him to keep everything low profile. That would solve the problem with a young Gerold Dayne being away from his family so long.

Doran is the only major lord who could deduce what occurred in the tower of joy, he could be convinced that Jon was born there and is the son of Rhaegar, but the only way to be sure is with someone's testimony (as Aero Hotah says to Arianne, there is always someone who talks.) I believe that for reasons of loyalty and honor the Daynes could have revealed part of what happened to him, but Darkstar being another source of such knowledge is interesting and is so far the best explanation for the hazard Doran claim that Darkstar represents.

Hightower being the Lord Commander of king's guard kept Gerold Dayne a good amount of time at King's Landing, and there he would witness the atrocities of Aerys with Hightower hiding behind his oath and his honor. Perhaps this explains his bitterness.

[Red Rahloo Connington]

"I was weaned on Venom Dalt, any Viper takes a bite of me will rue it."

I just noticed that this is foreshadowing Nymeria hunting Darkstar. Nymeria is a sand snake who has been sent to kill Darkstar, but will come to regret going after him.