Fred of Ashai Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Fred, the story is about the Knight of the Laughing Tree. Interestingly the story begins with Lyanna and ends with Lyanna. To me that means that the story is about Lyanna.I don't think that is right. The story begins with a discussion of whether there are any knights in the Neck. It ends with Rhaegar's failure to find the Knight. Then Meera says that Lyanna's being named Queen of Love and Beauty was a sadder (i.e., different) story, and Bran thinks about the fact that a crannog man turned into a knight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 Yes, I think he figured it out... and protected her by returning with her shield, claiming to have found it in a tree, only to honor her for her heroic deeds by giving her the crown of love and beauty - not because of some infatuation, but because she had been the only true knight in the tournament, similar to how Dunk was the only true knight at Ashford, and hence was defended by Baelor Breakspear. This exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I thought I said she didn't deserve a hate thread. :tantrum: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I thought I said she didn't deserve a hate thread. :tantrum: I know :( But! Again on cue, and to offset the hate, I've just been reading this :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 You are right, but oh well... some people have more problems with a girl choosing her own life than they have with oppressing patriarchy that damages not only the women but also the men (like, for example, Tyrion or Sam). Lyanna running away with Rhaegar may put her in the wrong for the Westerosi, but it's not her who is in the wrong; it's the other Westerosi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I don't think that is right. The story begins with a discussion of whether there are any knights in the Neck. It ends with Rhaegar's failure to find the Knight.Then Meera says that Lyanna's being named Queen of Love and Beauty was a sadder (i.e., different) story, and Bran thinks about the fact that a crannog man turned into a knight.Depending on how you want to select the beginning, you could say that the story begins with Bran asking for a story about knights because Hodor likes that, and so does he. But, the story begins with the crannogman being abused by three squires and Lyanna rescuing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 So the app is sort of "unreliable canon"? That's how I take it.I don't get your point about Varys' conversation with Kevan. Kevan says "He's dead" and Varys responds "no." Now, Varys might be lying, but he clearly says that Rhaegar's son, Aegon Targaryen, is alive.Back to the Knight of the Laughing Tree, do the people who think it was Lyanna also think Rhaegar figured that out? Because Meera says that Rhaegar never found the Knight. No, it is reliable canon inasmuch what can be revealed until the work is finished. And here is the sequence of events at Harrenhal regarding the Knight of the Laughing Tree/The Queen of Love and Beauty, followed up by a summation by Selmy: "It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. "Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a Princess? "No," said Meera. "That night at the great castle, the storm lord and the knight of skulls and kisses swore they would unmask him, and the king himself urged men to challenge him, declaring that the face behind that helm was no friend of his." (One could almost, ALMOST feel sorry for Aerys as he sends his son into the arms of the woman who would take all from him). "But the next morning, when the heralds blew their trumpets and the kind took his seat, only two champions appeared. The Knight of the Laughing Tree had vanished. The king was wroth, and even sent his son the dragon prince to seek the man, but all they ever found was his painted shield, hanging abandoned in a tree. It was the dragon prince who won that tourney in the end." "Oh." Bran thought about the tale awhile. "That was a good story. But, it should have been the three bad knights who hurt him, not their squires. Then the little crannogman could have killed them all. The part about the ransoms was stupid. And the mystery knight should win the tourney, defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty." "She was," said Meera, "but that's a sadder story." And then later in aDwD, from Selmy: "Better for Daenaerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the Queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it. Daemon Blackfyre had loved the first Daenerys, and rose in rebellion when denied her. Bittersteel and Bloodraven had both loved Sheira Seastar, and the Seven Kingdoms bled....." Selmy goes on to list the rest of the Targaryen loves and losses, and ends with this:"Her love for Daario is poison. A slower poison than the locusts, but in the end as deadly." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 You are right, but oh well... some people have more problems with a girl choosing her own life than they have with oppressing patriarchy that damages not only the women but also the men (like, for example, Tyrion or Sam). Lyanna running away with Rhaegar may put her in the wrong for the Westerosi, but it's not her who is in the wrong; it's the other Westerosi. Some people who enjoy the liberty of being born into a society which allows them to have sex with and marry anyone they choose also seem to have problem with people who were born less lucky but desire the same liberties as we take for granted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 I know :( But! Again on cue, and to offset the hate, I've just been reading this :) I've read that as well, and he really captures it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 An interesting image. http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/005/5/0/507793d92ece68d24996e089a24c55e9-d4ld625.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyse Stark Posted March 3, 2014 Share Posted March 3, 2014 And I wouldn't be surprised if Lyanna, in rejecting Robert for Rhaegar, unknowingly fulfilled prophecy when she made Ned promise to protect Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred of Ashai Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 And she beat up the squires who were beating up Howland. It all makes perfect sense, seriously. At this point I think R+L and KotLT, just like Jaqen and Alchemist and Sandor as the Gravedigger and Alleras=Sarella are so ironclad that denying them with pseudo-arguments is just that - denial. Do you read it that way? I read it that it was three against one when the squires set upon Howland, and they got the drop on him. Then Lyanna showed up with a tourney sword and announced that she was Lord Rickard's daughter. They were squires from lesser houses. There is no way they would hit a girl, much less a lady of Winterfell. She basically took advantage of her gender and position to level the playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteOwl18 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 And I wouldn't be surprised if Lyanna, in rejecting Robert for Rhaegar, unknowingly fulfilled prophecy when she made Ned promise to protect Jon. Maybe that's what the prophecy means by "the prince that was promised". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost's Shadow Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Yup, yup. It's likely a big title was given for a moment so short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Do you read it that way? I read it that it was three against one when the squires set upon Howland, and they got the drop on him. Then Lyanna showed up with a tourney sword and announced that she was Lord Rickard's daughter. They were squires from lesser houses. There is no way they would hit a girl, much less a lady of Winterfell. She basically took advantage of her gender and position to level the playing field.:bs:"She laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 :bs:"She laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all." :agree:IIRC, she never mentioned Rickard - she said they were beating her father's bannerman, and I really don't expect a couple of low nobody squires to figure out who her father might be. Besides, I don't think she was dressed like a lady at the moment - one has to recall Arya, who in her training clothes was not even recognized for a girl. So, definitely no taking advantage of position, and gender only questionably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 If I may ask you, Fred: What is your problem with Lyanna having martial prowess? It's not just the tourney at Harrenhal, we know from various different sources that she was a prolific horse rider and a very good sword fighter. She beat Benjen in the Godswood, and apparently was famous for her horse riding skills so much that not only Harwin, but also Roose Bolton remarks on them. I may add that we have Brienne and one character in a TWoW preview chapter who are also female and have martial prowess, so it's nothing restricted to Lyanna. So, what leads you to believe Lyanna can't have been a fighter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 An interesting image. http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/005/5/0/507793d92ece68d24996e089a24c55e9-d4ld625.jpgMissed this! Yes interesting... clearly the possibilities implied by the KotLT story have far ranging implications to the larger narrative :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFire3 Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Missed this! Yes interesting... clearly the possibilities implied by the KotLT story have far ranging implications to the larger narrative :) Could such far ranging implications explain some people's resistance to Lyanna's martial prowess? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FittleLinger Posted March 4, 2014 Share Posted March 4, 2014 Do you read it that way? I read it that it was three against one when the squires set upon Howland, and they got the drop on him. Then Lyanna showed up with a tourney sword and announced that she was Lord Rickard's daughter. They were squires from lesser houses. There is no way they would hit a girl, much less a lady of Winterfell. She basically took advantage of her gender and position to level the playing field. Well, I work with what's in the text. Sure, she could've scattered them with status and not a sword, and the story might have morphed later for epic reasons, but we don't have any indication of that. We only have what's been told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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