R + L = J v 72

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

Thanks for bringing up the TKOTLT’s shield! It helped me realize, and I feel foolish for not realizing this sooner, that Lyanna seems to share similarities with weirwoods.

• Weirwoods are red and white. In Theon’s dream, Lyanna is dressed in white and covered with gore. (I assume the gore is red).

• Weirwoods are also described as blood and bone. Lyanna was in a “bed of blood” at the TOJ, and then Ned took her bones back to Winterfell.

When weirwoods die, they become stone. After Lyanna died, Ned had a stone statue of her made.

It’s noted that when a weirwood leaks sap, it appears to be crying blood. Ned has a dream where Lyanna weeps blood.

Since Jon connects Ghost's coloration to a weirwood, the Lyanna-weirwood connection could be another reason for why Jon got Ghost rather than a direwolf that was grey or black.

I like it :thumbsup:

Good analysis

[Alia of the knife]

I've always thought a bittersweet ending would be if Jon does end up on the IT and in KL, would be finding his mother's shield hidden away in the red keep.

[Ygrain]

I'll give you the same response I gave her. I want people to read Rhaegar Targaryen, then see my face pictured below it, read Rhaegar, see me face, etc. Over time, my face will become synonomous with being a handsome, mysterious, high-born lad.

Bleaching your hair should make it easier :-)

Wanna make the thread? :lol: (I kid, I kid. She doesn't deserve a hate thread.)

Don't whistle at the devil, there hasn't been one for quite some time. You know, how Lyanna let her father and brother die while shagging with Rhaegar and how she was a slut for preferring the emo prince to the manly Bob.

Wow. That's excellent!! Who says we've already discussed everything here? :cheers:

And to reply to Alia-- I think the KotLT shield turning up somewhere (a la Brienne finding Dunk's) would be fabulous! I love little nuggets like relics from the past popping up in unlikely places :)

Agreed to both - the parallel of Lyanna's colours with weirwood is an excellent catch. It might provide an interesting twist on the prophecies - what if Rhaegar was right, after all, and he was PTWP, a champion of fire whose destiny was create a certain song with a champion of Ice? - Yes, getting at the "Jon is the Lightbringer" theory.

And Lyanna's KotLT shield in Red Keep would be a great giveaway, not to mention that it could serve as a plot device to provide some more insight into the events of Harrenhal, by someone who was present then.

[Fred of Ashai]

And Lyanna's KotLT shield in Red Keep would be a great giveaway, not to mention that it could serve as a plot device to provide some more insight into the events of Harrenhal, by someone who was present then.

Do you think Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree? If so, why? I thought it was obviously Howland Reed -- booming voice and all.

[J. Stargaryen]

Do you think Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing Tree? If so, why? I thought it was obviously Howland Reed -- booming voice and all.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/60771-knight-of-the-laughing-tree/page-12#entry4023844

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight_of_the_Laughing_Tree/Theories

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/60771-knight-of-the-laughing-tree/page-12#entry4023844

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight_of_the_Laughing_Tree/Theories

This.

[Fred of Ashai]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/60771-knight-of-the-laughing-tree/page-12#entry4023844

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Knight_of_the_Laughing_Tree/Theories

Okay, so you agree it was Howland Reed? I was wondering why the other poster thought it might have been Lyanna Stark ( I know that sounds crazy but we should respect all opinions).

[J. Stargaryen]

Okay, so you agree it was Howland Reed? I was wondering why the other poster thought it might have been Lyanna Stark.

"or not."

[Fred of Ashai]

"or not."

Huh?

[The guy from the Vale]

That's what Jojen answers when Bran concludes that the crannogman was the KotLT.

No, it almost has to be Lyanna, for a number of reasons:

1. The crannogman can't ride, but we are told in the books that jousting is three quarters horsemanship.On the other hand, we are repeatedly told that Lyanna was an excellent rider.
   
2. Howland Reed told only the Starks about the squires. So the KotLT has to be either Howland (who can't ride a horse) or one of the Starks.
   
3. The KotLT was of small stature, so he can't be Ned or Brandon, both of whom were fully grown by this time.
   
4. Benjen might be an option, but the KotLT has ill-fitting armor while we are also told that Benjen has his own suit of armor with him.
   
5. Which leaves Lyanna. The booming voice is no reason to assume it can't be a woman; Brienne had a booming voice through her helmet too.
   

[Ghost's Shadow]

One of my favs:

It was a good story, Bran decided after thinking about it a moment or two. “Then what happened? Did the Knight of the Laughing Tree win the tourney and marry a princess?”

Close enough. The prince won the tournament and married the KotLT.

[FrozenFire3]

Going back to icons, or items from the past.

I wonder if the shield of tKotLT, (Lyannas shield), is hiding somewhere in KL?

I'd love it. As Lady G pointed out, these little 'souvenirs' tend to pop up quite frequently throughout the saga, from Dunk's shield to Elaena's egg. They're little links of that chain of the past so eloquently described by Tyrion (see below).

Thanks for bringing up the TKOTLT’s shield! It helped me realize, and I feel foolish for not realizing this sooner, that Lyanna seems to share similarities with weirwoods.

• Weirwoods are red and white. In Theon’s dream, Lyanna is dressed in white and covered with gore. (I assume the gore is red).

• Weirwoods are also described as blood and bone. Lyanna was in a “bed of blood” at the TOJ, and then Ned took her bones back to Winterfell.

When weirwoods die, they become stone. After Lyanna died, Ned had a stone statue of her made.

It’s noted that when a weirwood leaks sap, it appears to be crying blood. Ned has a dream where Lyanna weeps blood.

Since Jon connects Ghost's coloration to a weirwood, the Lyanna-weirwood connection could be another reason for why Jon got Ghost rather than a direwolf that was grey or black.

How contributing to this thread with new, original additions. Not to mention an excellent grasp of textual analysis. Very, very interesting.

One of my favs:

Close enough. The prince won the tournament and married the KotLT.

Mine too. Another of those masterful passages that would lose meaning and ironic edge if deprived of a certain postulate (in this case, KotLT=Lyanna).

[MtnLion]

And GRRM chortling away as he writes that . . .

[Ygrain]

And GRRM chortling away as he writes that . . .

Ah yes, the evil author cackle...

May I dust my favourite trope subversion of Lyanna kidnapping Rhaegar? :P

[FrozenFire3]

And GRRM chortling away as he writes that . . .

Oh, yes. That too :devil:

He was his father's son. Wasn't he? Wasn't he?

Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes

Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son.

Ah yes, the evil author cackle...

May I dust my favourite trope subversion of Lyanna kidnapping Rhaegar? :P

Yes, please ;)

On a side note, if you guys have a bit of spare time during the weekend, have a look at this little gem. Kit+GRRM+fans = explosive combination.

Interesting passage starting at 12:20:

Is it Wylla the person that's supposed to be? [...] I don't think it's her. [...] Ned Stark's been hiding a big secret about him

Very funny passage round 37:00. Makes me think regular posters on these boards are not really a representative sample of the ASoiaF fandom LOL

I'd point out also GRRM's random question about Kit's noble origins (on his father side)... round 33:15.

[corbon]

Okay, so you agree it was Howland Reed? I was wondering why the other poster thought it might have been Lyanna Stark ( I know that sounds crazy but we should respect all opinions).

Read all 3 parts, posts 235, 236, 238.

If you still think its Howland Reed after that then you just can't be helped. :cool4:

Oh, and the right have an opinion ought to be respected, but opinions are not themselves inherently worthy of respect, or all created equal.

[Rhaegar I Targaryen]

First off corbon -- tremendous work putting that together. I'm glad I don't have to come up with a rebuttle :lol:

Secondly, I gotta spend some more time reading. Some of you put together incredibly elaborate theories that I would never think of. It's really cool to see. I wanna reach theory developing status B)

[JNR]

No, it almost has to be Lyanna, for a number of reasons:

1. The crannogman can't ride

The boldfaced bit -- the first piece of evidence cited, which is critical to the argument -- is a good example of the way information becomes distorted in the forums.

The crannogmen, in general, are said to have ridden boats more often than horses. It is never stated they can't ride. The horsemanship of this particular crannogman is not stated at all.

He feared making a fool of himself, that we know, but why we are not told. Quite possibly because although he could ride, he had never jousted in his life.

Furthermore, if you think the crannogman in the story was Howland Reed, he almost certainly could ride.

Unless you think that to get to the ToJ with Ned, Howland Reed... ran?

In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory’s father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon’s squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed;

I conclude, in short, that the premise that Howland Reed could not ride, as frequently cited in this discussion, is not well founded.

[Ygrain]

The boldfaced bit -- the first piece of evidence cited, which is critical to the argument -- is a good example of the way information becomes distorted in the forums.

The crannogmen, in general, are said to have ridden boats more often than horses. It is never stated they can't ride. The horsemanship of this particular crannogman is not stated at all.

He feared making a fool of himself, that we know, but why we are not told. Quite possibly because although he could ride, he had never jousted in his life.

Furthermore, if you think the crannogman in the story was Howland Reed, he almost certainly could ride.

Unless you think that to get to the ToJ with Ned, Howland Reed... ran?

I conclude, in short, that the premise that Howland Reed could not ride, as frequently cited in this discussion, is not well founded.

And HR's riding skills two years later are a basis for his riding skills at Harrenhal because...?

[The guy from the Vale]

The boldfaced bit -- the first piece of evidence cited, which is critical to the argument -- is a good example of the way information becomes distorted in the forums.

The crannogmen, in general, are said to have ridden boats more often than horses. It is never stated they can't ride. The horsemanship of this particular crannogman is not stated at all.

He feared making a fool of himself, that we know, but why we are not told. Quite possibly because although he could ride, he had never jousted in his life.

Furthermore, if you think the crannogman in the story was Howland Reed, he almost certainly could ride.

Unless you think that to get to the ToJ with Ned, Howland Reed... ran?

I conclude, in short, that the premise that Howland Reed could not ride, as frequently cited in this discussion, is not well founded.

Considerable time passed between these two passages though, enough for Howland to learn to ride during the war. Even then, It is very unlikely he learned to ride well enough to ride in a joust or compete with trained knights, not when having grown up in a bog. So, again, for all intents and purposes, Howland Reed couldn't ride well enough to joust and win a single fight.

ETA: Ygrain is a :ninja: