R + L = J v 72

[FittleLinger]

Wait what? The death of Arthur Dayne? What am I missing?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It is not a story about the death of of Arthur Dayne.

Yes, other than being a nameless white knight, only important because he danced with Ashara, Arthur isn't even in the KotLT story.

Wait what? The death of Arthur Dayne? What am I missing?

Not a damn thing.

ETA: Note that Jojen expresses true surprise that Bran doesn't know the story only after Bran says that wolf maid should have been named the QoLaB, and Meera said she was but it's a sadder story. Which suggests that the story is about the Stark family, and not just Howland.

[Fred of Ashai]

It is not a story about the death of of Arthur Dayne.

Sure it is. It is the story of Howland Reed's great adventure in life. He leaves the Neck, studies on the Isle of Faces, wins acclaim in a tournament as a mystery knight, goes to war with Ned Stark and the rest of the Northern lords, fights the King's guards in Dorne and kills the greatest knight of his time. Then he goes home to the Neck as a living legend. It is one of the best sub plots in the book and it is a great back story for Meera and Jojen and the Stark-Reed ties.

[FittleLinger]

Yes, other than being a nameless white knight, only important because he danced with Ashara, Arthur isn't even in the KotLT story.

Not a damn thing.

ETA: Note that Jojen expresses true surprise that Bran doesn't know the story only after Bran says that wolf maid should have been named the QoLaB, and Meera said she was but it's a sadder story. Which suggests that the story is about the Stark family, and not just Howland.

That's what I figured. On a more related note, do you guys think the Reeds know that hte knight was Lyanna? I get the feeling they do, but when they find out Ned hasn't told Bran that story, they figured that it was for a reason, so they don't spell it out.

Sure it is. It is the story of Howland Reed's great adventure in life. He leaves the Neck, studies on the Isle of Faces, wins acclaim in a tournament as a mystery knight, goes to war with Ned Stark and the rest of the Northern lords, fights the King's guards in Dorne and kills the greatest knight of his time. Then he goes home to the Neck as a living legend.

Yes. Except that the story contains zero of these things, except for a mystery knight at a tourney.

[Fred of Ashai]

That's what I figured. On a more related note, do you guys think the Reeds know that hte knight was Lyanna? I get the feeling they do, but when they find out Ned hasn't told Bran that story, they figured that it was for a reason, so they don't spell it out.

Yes. Except that the story contains zero of these things, except for a mystery knight at a tourney.

Look again. The story Meera and Jojen told was all about Howland. It starts when he leaves the Neck and describes his journey to the Isle of Faces. Lyanna does not show up until halfway through the story.

[Ygrain]

They were honor-bound to fight, so much the tragedy. Of course that explanation is completely beyond the comprehension of anyone that has no honor.

Coup-de-grace.

I disagree. Lord Howland rode into battle, on a horse, with a sword in his hand. Not a net, not a spear, not a hand full of sand. During the battle he saved Ned from Arthur Dayne. There is nothing to suggest he dropped his sword and picked up a handful of sand in order to trick Arthur Dayne. The most logical inference is that he used his sword.

That is why I think the Knight of the Laughing Tree killed the Sword of the Morning and why Jojen and Meera thought Bran should know the story. (And in fact Bran did know part of the story because Ned told himhow it ended).

Fanfiction much?

BTW, you don't need to drop a sword to pick some dust, HR is never described as one-handed. You can also kick the dust in the opponent's eyes. Neither requires great fighting prowess.

[MtnLion]

Look again. The story Meera and Jojen told was all about Howland. It starts when he leaves the Neck and describes his journey to the Isle of Faces. Lyanna does not show up until halfway through the story.

Honestly? Go read the books, you will find that the story is about a knight, specifically the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The fact that Howland (if he is the little crannogman in the tale) wanted to learn new things, and travelled to see the God's Eye. Nearby was a tournament which aroused his curiosity, and no real details of his journey are given before his arrival at Harrenhal.

As they prepare to tell the story, Meera says that the KotLT might have been the crannogman, and Jojen says, "or not." When they relate things that are true they back each other up, so it seems apparent to me that Meera's statement is an intentional misdirection.

[Fred of Ashai]

Honestly? Go read the books, you will find that the story is about a knight, specifically the Knight of the Laughing Tree. The fact that Howland (if he is the little crannogman in the tale) wanted to learn new things, and travelled to see the God's Eye. Nearby was a tournament which aroused his curiosity, and no real details of his journey are given before his arrival at Harrenhal.

As they prepare to tell the story, Meera says that the KotLT might have been the crannogman, and Jojen says, "or not." When they relate things that are true they back each other up, so it seems apparent to me that Meera's statement is an intentional misdirection.

I don't read it that way. The question that starts the whole thing is whether there are any knights from the Neck. The answer is the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. If the knight is Lyanna it's a complete non sequitur. It would also make no sense to include details like the way the crannog man got past the twins, how he was armed, what he was wearing, what kind of boat he had, etc.

[The guy from the Vale]

I don't read it that way. The question that starts the whole thing is whether there are any knights from the Neck. The answer is the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. If the knight is Lyanna it's a complete non sequitur. It would also make no sense to include details like the way the crannog man got past the twins, how he was armed, what he was wearing, what kind of boat he had, etc.

But if Lyanna was the KotLT, we get another, slightly more subtle answer - that the champions of the Neck are... the Starks.

[FittleLinger]

I don't read it that way. The question that starts the whole thing is whether there are any knights from the Neck. The answer is the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree. If the knight is Lyanna it's a complete non sequitur. It would also make no sense to include details like the way the crannog man got past the twins, how he was armed, what he was wearing, what kind of boat he had, etc.

This doesn't answer some questions, though.

Why did he change his voice? Why didn't he participate as himself? Why didn't he reveal his identity? Why did he make the point that he was no rider and didn't stand a chance? Was he grossly underestimating himself? How did he take the courage to do it? Why was his armour bits and pieces?

[Black Crow]

Although Ned Stark's dream begins with he and his friends riding towards the tower, they fought it out on foot:

Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the great sword Dawn poked over his right shoulder. Ser Oswald Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white enameled helm, the black bat of his house spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower...

"And now it begins," said Sir Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This doesn't answer some questions, though.

Why did he change his voice? Why didn't he participate as himself? Why didn't he reveal his identity? Why did he make the point that he was no rider and didn't stand a chance? Was he grossly underestimating himself? How did he take the courage to do it? Why was his armour bits and pieces?

Yes, it doesn't make much sense for a crannogman who isn't a good rider to somehow be the KotLT. On the other hand, we're told that Lyanna Stark was a skilled horsewoman (by no less than Roose Bolton, who has no reason to toss out empty or overstated compliments), and also know that she at least had swordfighting practice with Benjen.

[FittleLinger]

Yes, it doesn't make much sense for a crannogman who isn't a good rider to somehow be the KotLT. On the other hand, we're told that Lyanna Stark was a skilled horsewoman (by no less than Roose Bolton, who has no reason to toss out empty or overstated compliments), and also know that she at least had swordfighting practice with Benjen.

And she beat up the squires who were beating up Howland. It all makes perfect sense, seriously. At this point I think R+L and KotLT, just like Jaqen and Alchemist and Sandor as the Gravedigger and Alleras=Sarella are so ironclad that denying them with pseudo-arguments is just that - denial.

[Alia of the knife]

"In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist."

"Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand."

One of the wraiths was "the crannogman, Howland Reed."

Howland rode into battle, on a horse, with a sword in his hand.

While Howland, like 90% of the population during Medieval times could/HAD to ride an animal to get anywhere, there is the difference of being a skilled rider.

Lady Dustin claimed that both Brandon and Lyanna were part Centaur, demonstrating the affinity both had with horses.

[Fred of Ashai]

Although Ned Stark's dream begins with he and his friends riding towards the tower, they fought it out on foot:

Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the great sword Dawn poked over his right shoulder. Ser Oswald Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white enameled helm, the black bat of his house spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower...

"And now it begins," said Sir Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands...

I think the seven were on horses and the three were on foot. There is nothing to indicate that Ned and his friends dismounted and there is nothing to indicate that the King's guards got on horses.

[Fred of Ashai]

This doesn't answer some questions, though.

Why did he change his voice? Why didn't he participate as himself? Why didn't he reveal his identity? Why did he make the point that he was no rider and didn't stand a chance? Was he grossly underestimating himself? How did he take the courage to do it? Why was his armour bits and pieces?

Most of these questions boil down to: why did he conceal his identity?

1. We know he noted the squires' faces so he could get "revenge" later. So he did something.

2. We know he is afraid of the Freys. That is mentioned repeatedly. So when he learns one of the squires is from the Twins he has an incentive to find a way to get revenge that doesn't draw attention to himself.

3. We know he has courage. He's bolder than most crannog men.

4. He never says he's no good on a horse. Just that he spends more time on boats.

5. He does demure when Lyanna offers him armor, but that is to keep his identity secret. (And turn that question around -- if Lyanna has access to armor why would she wear bits and pieces)?

[Black Crow]

I think the seven were on horses and the three were on foot. There is nothing to indicate that Ned and his friends dismounted and there is nothing to indicate that the King's guards got on horses.

Nah, after that exchange of courtesies Ned and his companions are going to be on foot as well. They are honourable men on both sides and the fight would be a very different one if Ned's party simply rode the three down.

[FittleLinger]

5. He does demure when Lyanna offers him armor, but that is to keep his identity secret. (And turn that question around -- if Lyanna has access to armor why would she wear bits and pieces)?

Because Lyanna is a highborn teenage girl and not having the right to officially participate is only one of the issues. The others will be the reactions of pretty much the whole kingdom and other highborns, and her family as well. She has every reason to conceal her identity, whereas Howland does not.

[Fire Eater]

Yes, it doesn't make much sense for a crannogman who isn't a good rider to somehow be the KotLT. On the other hand, we're told that Lyanna Stark was a skilled horsewoman (by no less than Roose Bolton, who has no reason to toss out empty or overstated compliments), and also know that she at least had swordfighting practice with Benjen.

GRRM also said Lyanna rode at rings which is a kind of prerequisite for jousting, or jousting training for squires. Jaime himself feels that jousting is 3/4 horsemanship.

[Fred of Ashai]

Because Lyanna is a highborn teenage girl and not having the right to officially participate is only one of the issues. The others will be the reactions of pretty much the whole kingdom and other highborns, and her family as well. She has every reason to conceal her identity, whereas Howland does not.

No doubt Lyanna would have hidden her identity if it had been her. A lot of other people would have done that, too, as mystery knights were very common. And of course whoever it was had an incentive to maintain the secrecy after Aerys declared the mystery knight to be an enemy.

More than most others, though, Howland had good reason to appear as a mystery knight. As I said, it is mentioned numerous times in the story that crannog men need to fear the Freys and then we see one of the squires is from the Twins. The only reason this matters at all is to explain why Howland had to obscure his identity.